Maximus Thane in the Siege of Terra series...

[Kelborn]

Besides, inverse speaking both could still be viewed as the same oath-name person.

 

Just like Archamus is treated as Archamus and not as the person behind the name.

 

One could still say that the Fists Exemplar take an example from their mother Legion by using old names as a way of honoring. Maybe that's one or the reason why they were chosen as the inofficial replacement. Fists Exemplar = exemplary Fists

 

So although being in different eras, places and ranks, the TBA Thane is seen as the HH Thane. Maybe Thane himself founds the FEs, making his name a venerated one within the chapter. Asterion Moloch COULD be a comparison as this was hinted at in his fluff.

 

So maybe that's why Haley could say it's the same guy.

 

Still a weak reasoning but hey, we're all humans. We all make mistakes.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Kelborn

[Kenzaburo]

I think the whole death of the author notion is very important here. Haley's comment has nothing to do with what is happening on the pages, in a way. There you are free to create your head-canon, as readers are expected to do. Keep in mind, that only a small margin of readers will know about Haley's statement in the first place. It's also a small margin of readers, that will have read about Thane in TBA, read about Thane in the Siege AND will actually remember both characters and cross-reference them. You/We are the exception to the rule.

 

From the point of view of an editorial office lacking oversight and have things slip through the cracks: It's sort of okay to hope for perfection in everything, to expect it though, will only set you up for failure and disappointment. :) In a vast IP universe as Warhammer, with the ton of story threads, fiction and a mass of characters that boggle the mind, it is far more likely for slip-ups like these to happen. I wonder what companies you guys work in, where everything works out perfectly, all the time. ;) Can't say that for mine. Singling Haley's comment out and making it the be-all end-all for the slip-up is also weird: It always depends on the circumstances his comment was made in. Was he fully aware of what was asked of him? Was he in a mind to think about it and grasp, what his comment would cause? Right now it seems more like he gave an off-hand comment to a quick question (I',m inferring that, haven't looked at the source of Haley's comment, sorry^^).

 

What I mean to say: Yes, it's a slip-up. No, it's not really killing my immersion. In a perfect world, an editor should have caught that (if there's ever anything like an editor, who knows all 40k fluff in even the obscurest detail). Things like these happen sometimes - let's not blow it out of proportion. 

And before you come at me with stuff like "If we all took that position, we'd see a decline in quality everywhere, because we are just okay with someone messing up"...yeah, well. I give you that. But there's a measure to it - when is something really a lack of quality adn when is a simple mistake just that, a simple mistake. Just saying. ;)

[Halandaar]

Maybe Thane himself founds the FEs, making his name a venerated one within the chapter.

Yeah except it's covered in TBA that the founding Chapter Master is Oriax Dantalion, a Captain of the Imperial Fists who actually did fight at the Siege. The FE Battle Barge commanded by Zerberyn (the Captain who goes rogue) is named Dantalion in his honour.

One could still say that the Fists Exemplar take an example from their mother Legion by using old names as a way of honoring. Maybe that's one or the reason why they were chosen as the inofficial replacement. Fists Exemplar = exemplary Fists

They are so called because Dorn described Dantalion and like-minded Fists as "exemplars of the new order", after Dantalion argued strongly in favour of the implementation of the Codex Astartes to Dorn despite the Primarch's misgivings about it.

 

It's not a matter of "maybe this" or "we could say that", this stuff is already established. We don't need to tie ourselves in knots coming up with ways to make it fit; it's just a mistake that contradicts the content of previous books.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Kelborn
Off topic removed

[bluntblade]

Oof. That the oath name is such a good solution makes this more irritating.

 

It's not the end of the world but it is sloppy editing, just as with the Jubal Khan origin in Solar War. I was under the impression that having a distinct siege series with the authors talking about how closely they have been collaborating would prevent this sort of thing.

I'm still not clear on the Jubal thing. SW seemed to be highlighting his Terran lieutenant, but not commenting on Jubal's origins.

[Kelborn]

@Halandaar: My post was purely speculative. Never read TBA, so I didn't knew all this. Thanks for enlighten me. ;)

[Angel_of_Blood]

I think the whole death of the author notion is very important here. Haley's comment has nothing to do with what is happening on the pages, in a way. There you are free to create your head-canon, as readers are expected to do. Keep in mind, that only a small margin of readers will know about Haley's statement in the first place. It's also a small margin of readers, that will have read about Thane in TBA, read about Thane in the Siege AND will actually remember both characters and cross-reference them. You/We are the exception to the rule.

 

From the point of view of an editorial office lacking oversight and have things slip through the cracks: It's sort of okay to hope for perfection in everything, to expect it though, will only set you up for failure and disappointment. In a vast IP universe as Warhammer, with the ton of story threads, fiction and a mass of characters that boggle the mind, it is far more likely for slip-ups like these to happen. I wonder what companies you guys work in, where everything works out perfectly, all the time. Can't say that for mine. Singling Haley's comment out and making it the be-all end-all for the slip-up is also weird: It always depends on the circumstances his comment was made in. Was he fully aware of what was asked of him? Was he in a mind to think about it and grasp, what his comment would cause? Right now it seems more like he gave an off-hand comment to a quick question (I',m inferring that, haven't looked at the source of Haley's comment, sorry^^).

 

What I mean to say: Yes, it's a slip-up. No, it's not really killing my immersion. In a perfect world, an editor should have caught that (if there's ever anything like an editor, who knows all 40k fluff in even the obscurest detail). Things like these happen sometimes - let's not blow it out of proportion. 

 

And before you come at me with stuff like "If we all took that position, we'd see a decline in quality everywhere, because we are just okay with someone messing up"...yeah, well. I give you that. But there's a measure to it - when is something really a lack of quality adn when is a simple mistake just that, a simple mistake. Just saying.

 

It's not the be all end all of errors. It's not going to ruin the series, nor is it on the scale of Mcneills :cuss up in The Outcast Dead for example. But it's nevertheless disappointing, and on the whole, noticeable errors like this are rare. Sure not everyone will notice either, but well, that's what this board is about. A lot of us are here because we are nitpicking pedantic :cusss, who do pay attention to even small details. 

 

Again, it's not going to make me enjoy the book any less, but I'll likely be reading any scene with Thane in with an arched eyebrow or similar. 

[mc warhammer]

did a bunch of posts disappear/move around?

[Kelborn]

Indeed. According to the rules of this Board, those posts not dealing with the discussion about Thane were sorted out.

[mc warhammer]

sure, it’s just odd that there are replies or posts still discussing death of the author remaining, so it seemed random

 

edit for on topic: thane rawks

Edited July 5, 2019 by mc warhammer

[karden00]

And to think, if Guy had just made the 22nd Captain of the Fists on Terra Oriax Dantallion instead, we'd be saying what a cool little nod that was to the Beast Arises series.

There is so much win in this. Iirc, didn’t Magnorik the dread talk Oriax up a fair bit? Would’ve been such a great nod!

[Moonreaper666]

How likely ot is that this Thane is the same one in the War of the Beast or is it the previous holder of the name like the Praetorian Archamus

[SkimaskMohawk]

According to the author, it's the same guy with no tricks or gotchas

[b1soul]

"I think the whole death of the author notion is very important here. Haley's comment has nothing to do with what is happening on the pages, in a way."

 

Yeah, but that's us doing the work of the authours and editors for them.

 

As a reader, I expect them to pick up things I pick up. I do this for leisure...they're paid professionals.

[Moonreaper666]

According to the author, it's the same guy with no tricks or gotchas

Is it possible for us the fanbase to demand a retcon on Thane to have it to be two different characters? Having the Thane we know be a Heresy veteran feels insulting to Sigismund and Pollux's characters

 

Thane to me is a late-bloomer that got the spolight against the Beast Orks. Besides, having 'Thane' die in the Heresy would be a surprise

[Roomsky]

 

Is it possible for us the fanbase to demand a retcon on Thane to have it to be two different characters? Having the Thane we know be a Heresy veteran feels insulting to Sigismund and Pollux's characters

 

Thane to me is a late-bloomer that got the spolight against the Beast Orks. Besides, having 'Thane' die in the Heresy would be a surprise

 

 

I mean there's not really any way Haley can prove they're the same person in the text. There's what, 1500 years between now and the War of the Beast? Plenty of time for Thane 1 to bite the dust and Thane 2 to take up the name, explicit or otherwise. I know some take Word of God very seriously but you don't just get to make a Twitter post that contradicts what the text very clearly establishes and say it must be true. Abnett could make a tweet tomorrow about how Ibram Gaunt is secretly Ferrus Manus after going into hiding for 10,000 years, it doesn't make it immutable fact.

[mc warhammer]

"I think the whole death of the author notion is very important here. Haley's comment has nothing to do with what is happening on the pages, in a way."

 

Yeah, but that's us doing the work of the authours and editors for them.

 

As a reader, I expect them to pick up things I pick up. I do this for leisure...they're paid professionals.

is it that cut and dry though?

 

some people are active audience members, others are passive. books tend to engage the former, moreso than say film, because it requires us to use imagination and fill in the gaps ourselves

 

and i’d say with the ambiguity, mysteries and half truths of 40k, were used to heavy lifting in that dept that most aren’t

 

haley’s non canonical musings matter as much as you want them to

[b1soul]

Yup, I understand that in Beast Arises, Thane is definitely not described as an ancient Heresy veteran (quite the contrary) and in L&D, there is nothing to link Heresy Thane with Beast-era Thane...what get's me is that I expect BL authours to know this, or to at least do some research before posting online.

[mc warhammer]

i don't think anyone can argue with that, i'm all for "do your job and do it well"

 

but i think we have to remember we're making quite a few assumptions. that haley was unaware of what was written about thane in tBA or didn't care. that haley and kyme hadn't discussed it. that haley is trying to hoodwink us all online.

 

i mean, i can see how people draw that conclusion, it's not illogical. it's also not 100% certain or fair

[Moonreaper666]

Having Thane from WotB be a Heresy veteran implies he is more badass than Sigismund, Pollux or other Heresy veterans since they all died long before War of the Beast

 

It would be like Guy Haley lying that his ancestor fought in WW2 but also claiming him to be more badass than Audrey Murphy and Mad Jack Churchill!

[mc warhammer]

yeah exactly like that

[Angel_of_Blood]

His company are even called 'the Exemplars'...

 

Why on earth Haley wouldn't just have Thanes character from LatD be Dantalion.

[Halandaar]

His company are even called 'the Exemplars'...

Really? Oh Guy, what a cluster.

 

Every effort being made to forge this link to TBA is creating even more contradictions.

[Moonreaper666]

 

His company are even called 'the Exemplars'...

Really? Oh Guy, what a cluster.

 

Every effort being made to forge this link to TBA is creating even more contradictions.

Can't Haley just admit he was wrong and change it? Retcon it so we have two different Thanes?

 

At this rate Haley will become the next C.S. Goto

[Angel_of_Blood]

Thing is, even if we retcon it to a oath name. It's still a completely needless and blatant shoe in for the Beast Arises series and isn't necessary at all. Why couldn't Thanes character have been Halbrecht or Efried. Both are probably still commanding their fleets, but they were pulling back to Terra. Or how about Katafalque, he would have been perfect to bring in. But no, we have to connect to TBA series for no reason at all. 

[Felix Antipodes]

I have no issue with the TBA connection being made. I just don't understand why Haley used Thane instead of Dantalion. I can only think that he pulled the name from memory rather than doing a reread and got his characters mixed up. Subsequent Twitter talk being back-pedalling after the fact?