The Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson

[WARMASTER_]

I just noticed my typo that may have contributed to your post- "do" should have been "down."

 

Your interpretation would be more accurate if he had left out the part about generalization being the rule through the knight level. I could buy the DA being overall ready for anything, in fact that seems the point of the various circles. But individual knights? They are clearly specialists.

My take away was that even individual knights also have many specialties you could be a tactical marine of the 9th order 5th company but also be part of the fire wing and also part of one of the hundred orders in that have a secret purpose or specific task Edited October 19, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[WrathOfTheLion]

That is how it is. The three tiers of command are separated.

 

So the rank in the Legion - tactical marine, praetor, etc. is completely independent of rank in the particular wing of the hexagrammaton, which is completely independent of inclusion or rank in the particular knight order. So a base tactical marine could be a senior member of a knight order, whilst being under a sergeant in rank in the standard legion command.

 

To quote, "What complicated this arrangement was that to outsiders it seemed that the three different strands of authority within the Legion were not linked, and left no standing and fixed method by which one could tell when the authority of one commander outstripped that of another."

Edited October 19, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

Exactly. The Voted Lieutenant of the Firewing was a sergeant. He'd be outranked in normal operations, but not if Firewing protocols were enacted... unless they were done in conjunction with a specific Order and then the ranking member of the order would be in charge.

[RedDragon]

Is anyone else still having problems with downloading the ebook? I've sent an email this morning but no reply as of yet.

[Attias]

Is anyone else still having problems with downloading the ebook? I've sent an email this morning but no reply as of yet.

 

Hi ReDragon.

 

Yes, unfortunately, I am still having difficulty with downloading the book. Actually, I was able to get the .mobi file downloaded but the .epub version keeps giving me a server error message. I tried the .mobi file but it doesn't work very well on my Kobo e-reader; there is frequent messed up/garbled text & font which was just pissing me off and ruining the experience so I stopped. I tried different browsers with no luck but it's just that one file (I was able to download other .epub book/files from my BL account with no problem). I sent a heldesk email request last Saturday and got a note saying they are experiencing a high volume of help requests and that it would take up to 10 days to get back to me which is ridiculous. First time I ever had trouble with Black Library and it had to be with this already-delayed book that I've been dying to read for months now. Anyway, if I learn of any tips or tricks to get it working, I'll share it but for now, no you are not alone with this problem.   

[theSpirea]

Can you try converting the file mobi -> epub? Calibre is a freeware and it's very easy to use.

[Red_Shift]

I'm two thirds through this. I'm finding the Dark Angels annoyingly arrogant and I can't decide if it's deliberate characterisation or just that the author thinks they are that amazing. There are numerous examples but the most obvious is that they can apparently fortify as well as Dorn. There seem to be frequent disparaging remarks about various legions and primarchs. I'm finding it grating.

 

The villains/xenos are engaging but a little too flawless so far. Although doubtless the lion will outsmart them. The plot seems a bit contrived. These guys are impervious/undefeatable but we have the weapons to defeat them stored in secret because we are the dark angels and we are super special and awesome. I don't want to sound too negative but it feels like bad writing to me.

[DarkChaplain]

Welcome to the FW fluff, I'd say.

[Kelborn]

Welcome to the FW fluff, I'd say.

Pretty much this. Though I enjoyed the fluff part of Crusade and find the DA article quite good for certain reasons, I'm not sure if it works in a "regular" novel.

Wanted to get it this week but I guess I'll stick with my Vlka Fenryka Christmas plans. ;)

[Indefragable]

I actually forgot I read (listened) to this one and finished it 2 weeks back or so. 

 

I found it perfectly adequate. Nothing really disappointed me, but nothing really blew me away either. Having poured through Crusade relatively recently, this definitely felt like David Guymer was given an early copy of that tome and tasked with spinning the "About the I Legion" section into some sort of narrative. 

 

The Lion comes off ....ok. Would have liked more from his perspective or more "alone" time with him, so to speak. Even the

brief bits about his 1:1's with the Emperor cause more questions than answers, and not in a good way

are not quite what I was hoping for, but in some ways that is the definition of this series overall. 

 

The Dark Angels other than the Lion all blur together and seem interchangeable, and not due to their deliberate shtick. 

 

That being said I thought it was serviceable overall and it gets a big boost for using a Legion's shtick as the central premise of the story, and it get a massive boost for just deliciously creepy-cool grimdark the Khrave are. Well done there. Almost worth reading just to get a first-hand peek at what the vile kenos are like. Really makes you wonder what the Rangda were like if they were worse. 

 

To me it's the defining midpoint of the series so far: plenty better, plenty worse.

 

My personal rankings of the Primarchs series:

Hidden Content

 

1. Fulgrim: the definition of what was lost/what could have been

2. Leman Russ: one of the best depictions of the Lion so far, and fleshing out both an iconic moment of the past as well as fleeting glimpses of parts of the story we have not yet explored 

3. Perturabo: this one takes 3rd place for me for 2 reasons: the ending and the Hrud; One of the creepy-coolest enemies yet explored. 

4. Jaghatai Khan: almost a companion piece to Wraight's Scars and Path of Heaven in a great way, and also some fresh takes on Magnus and Sanguinius and explores some interesting interactions. Bonus points for Hastur Sejanus cameo

5. Konrad Curze: as much a Horror entry as a Primarchs entry; not perfect but gives us what no other story in all of 40k literature has so far: a Primarch directly telling us his own thoughts, motivations, and feelings (be careful what you wish for). Bonus points for the structure of the story, FWIW.

 

6. Lorgar: some would probably rate this higher, since the world building aspect is its greatest strength. Exploring a character and breathing life into him when you didn't realize you wanted even more life breathed into him. That being said, it's not as "ah ha!" as the Tier 1 entires above

7. Lion El'Jonson: the perfect midpoint of the series so far; nothing really terrible, but nothing really great. A tiny bit of insight into the Lion, but not as much as this series deserves considering it should be all about shining a spotlight on each dude. Other characters are faceless and indistinguishable. Khrave come as another awesomely creepy-cool xenos threat, up there with the Hrud. Amazing to think that these sorts of gribblies were exterminated by the thousands during the Great Crusade

9. Corax: cool story overall, has it's moments, but reaching back there are not a ton of standouts. Solid entry.

10. Angron: an ok and nothing special story elevated by a singularly awesome scene in the middle. Manly tear moment in a grimdark sort of way

11. Magnus the Red: some excellent ideas (Space Marines on a humanitarian mission!) get lost in what feels like tacked-on bolter porn and poor editing/pacing. Shame, as it had real potential, perhaps it should have been 2 separate stories.

 

11. Ferrus Manus: if any book should have done more, it's this one. Alas, it feels like a force feeding of exactly why Ferrus deserved to end up a head shorter. I actually read (listened) to this one a second time and it's improved in my mind, but not enough to move it up any ranks). In short, its just disappointing. 

12. Vulkan: umm, Space Marines kill a ton of Orkz. Like, a TON, you guys. Like, there were so many. 

13. Roboute Guilliman: take Vulkan's above and now make it actively worse, not only because it's RG, but because phrases like (and I directly quote) "he swung his sword with the force of pure reason" not only feature, but often. 

 

 

Eagerly awaiting:

 

• Mortarion
• Dorn
• Alpharius/Omegon
• Horus
• Sanguinius

 

[DarkChaplain]

Just gonna chip in on your rankings specifically, because I think your description for Leman Russ encapsulates why I didn't much care for The Great Wolf. It's a better look at the Lion than Russ.

Similarly, I didn't think Warhawk of Chogoris did well standing on its own. It works well as a companionpiece or prequel to Wraight's Scars novels, but on its own I found it particularly dissatisfying, narratively.

 

I still haven't read The Lion at this point. It probably marks my biggest issues with the series, being so thoroughly Forgeworldian, delivering lore blurbs to accompany a Black Book instead of actually being an interesting narrative first. When it was announced that Guymer would be writing it, I was excited as hell, as I enjoyed his Dreadwing a damn lot. There was a lot of potential for him doing a novel focused on El'Jonson and his officers, room for moral ambiguity and both praise and critique on the character. No matter whether you like Gorgon of Medusa, it certainly did highlight Ferrus' nature in interesting ways, showing his strengths and weaknesses pretty evenly. The Lion novel seems like it is more about promotion for the First Legion and filling in new fluff/retcons, rather than exploring what already existed. From all the reviews and notes I've seen so far, it doesn't seem particularly bold with it, either. Maybe Guymer was told to dial it back after Ferrus, because they still want to sell miniatures with the books...

 

It's definitely not the sort of book I would have wanted it to be, or am eager to read. I think it is the first Primarchs novel that I couldn't be bothered to fit into my reading pile. The premise does more to tick me off than excite me.

[Indefragable]

Just gonna chip in on your rankings specifically, because I think your description for Leman Russ encapsulates why I didn't much care for The Great Wolf. It's a better look at the Lion than Russ.

Similarly, I didn't think Warhawk of Chogoris did well standing on its own. It works well as a companionpiece or prequel to Wraight's Scars novels, but on its own I found it particularly dissatisfying, narratively.

 

I still haven't read The Lion at this point. It probably marks my biggest issues with the series, being so thoroughly Forgeworldian, delivering lore blurbs to accompany a Black Book instead of actually being an interesting narrative first. When it was announced that Guymer would be writing it, I was excited as hell, as I enjoyed his Dreadwing a damn lot. There was a lot of potential for him doing a novel focused on El'Jonson and his officers, room for moral ambiguity and both praise and critique on the character. No matter whether you like Gorgon of Medusa, it certainly did highlight Ferrus' nature in interesting ways, showing his strengths and weaknesses pretty evenly. The Lion novel seems like it is more about promotion for the First Legion and filling in new fluff/retcons, rather than exploring what already existed. From all the reviews and notes I've seen so far, it doesn't seem particularly bold with it, either. Maybe Guymer was told to dial it back after Ferrus, because they still want to sell miniatures with the books...

 

It's definitely not the sort of book I would have wanted it to be, or am eager to read. I think it is the first Primarchs novel that I couldn't be bothered to fit into my reading pile. The premise does more to tick me off than excite me.

 

For what it's worth, I think it was one of the quickest reads (listens) I have had in a long time. Like three sessions (I typically listen to them while doing laundry, dishes, odd jobs if I'm not painting at the time). 

 

As for your critique of ​The Great Wolf, it's not wrong, but I think its a hard-to-pull off technique, using a foil/contrasting character to highlight another. In this case the Lion's showing in it is so strong that it dulls Russ's....in his own book. Yet, from a certain perspective, that's what makes it awesome, especially given that

it ends with Russ showing <gasp> humility about the whole thing. Reflecting misty-eyed about that brotherly scuffle he had in his dumb youth. It many ways it is the perfect encapsulation of showing just how deep and wise Russ and the SW really are under their (literal, in this case) rough-and-tumble exterior.

One could even imagine and entire series of books focused entirely on

that one time each Primarch was bested and thus how they handled a loss explores their character. Do they learn anything from it? Do they grumble and groan or grow stronger and wiser from it? Or do they change the goalposts and reclassify it as a win of sorts? Or do they claim the system is rigged and try to get it overturned in the courts ermm.... excuse me. Too soon.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Indefragable

[Red_Shift]

I really enjoy when unknown/non-playable xenos appear in heresy novels in general. As a reader I'm not sure how they will react or quite what their capabilities are and I like the weirdness. I'd not read the forgeworld books so the Khrave were completely unknown to me.

 

I now realise that this might be due to the original forgeworld lore but the khrave were too powerful and all knowing for my tastes and their downfall too simplistic.

 

As a primarch novel I don't think it really told me anything about Johnson except what I already know; that he has a high opinion of himself and that he likes secrecy. Unlike the imo excellent Perturabo book it didn't really explore those personality traits in any meaningful way and it didn't hint at anything unexpected.

 

I think it could have been a fair bit better if the different secret societies had been shown as a weakness initially , with their secrecy hindering the efforts of a newly minted character. Gradually it could then have been shown as a strength as it allows a group unseen/unknown by the khrave to manoeuvre into position to strike a deathblow. I think this was broadly intended but it was clumsily done imo as the dark age weaponry was wheeled out conveniently. It might have been better if Johnson had been gifted them by big E and tasked specifically with taking out the khrave in one of their meetings. This would have shown a high level of trust between the two and might even have been used to hint at the role Johnson took in the heresy and give a nod to the various conspiracy theories.

 

I might be being a bit unfair, it read easily and I finished it rapidly enough. I think for me these are much anticipated releases and I hope for more. I have been really keen for a Dorn novel since the series was announced!

[Indefragable]

I really enjoy when unknown/non-playable xenos appear in heresy novels in general. As a reader I'm not sure how they will react or quite what their capabilities are and I like the weirdness. I'd not read the forgeworld books so the Khrave were completely unknown to me.

 

I now realise that this might be due to the original forgeworld lore but the khrave were too powerful and all knowing for my tastes and their downfall too simplistic.

 

As a primarch novel I don't think it really told me anything about Johnson except what I already know; that he has a high opinion of himself and that he likes secrecy. Unlike the imo excellent Perturabo book it didn't really explore those personality traits in any meaningful way and it didn't hint at anything unexpected.

 

I think it could have been a fair bit better if the different secret societies had been shown as a weakness initially , with their secrecy hindering the efforts of a newly minted character. Gradually it could then have been shown as a strength as it allows a group unseen/unknown by the khrave to manoeuvre into position to strike a deathblow. I think this was broadly intended but it was clumsily done imo as the dark age weaponry was wheeled out conveniently. It might have been better if Johnson had been gifted them by big E and tasked specifically with taking out the khrave in one of their meetings. This would have shown a high level of trust between the two and might even have been used to hint at the role Johnson took in the heresy and give a nod to the various conspiracy theories.

 

I might be being a bit unfair, it read easily and I finished it rapidly enough. I think for me these are much anticipated releases and I hope for more. I have been really keen for a Dorn novel since the series was announced!

 

I totally get where you are coming from.

 

However, my interpretation is that the layers of convoluted secrecy within the I Legion are there on purpose specifically to pre-empt the machinations of potential foes like the Khrave. Likewise, the secret vaults of esoteric weaponry are part "break glass in case of kenos species x71340asdfb-g" and part like a high school janitors key ring: that one shed may not be opened for decades, but he has a key for it on the off chance it does get opened. 

 

The Emperor's plan for, and the Lion's execution of the I Legion's mandate is almost Tzeentchian in that sense: it operates in such a Byzantine way to be ready for the 1 in a bajillion chance of encountering something. It's like if the I Legion's official song was "Indian Love Call" and every Iniiatie had memorize just on the off chance they encountered certain Martian invaders. 

[Kelborn]

Well, let's see:

 

- I liked the Dark Angels since when I started playing Dawn of War 1 along with the Wolves.

- I enjoyed Forge Worlds take on the First Legion.

- I love Davids AoS stuff and Dreadwing.

 

And I just bought the book. In theory, there are enough factors by which I should have a good time reading it.

See where that will end up then. ;)

[Gederas]

One thing I've noticed with the Lion is this:

Most of the Primarchs have major development during the Crusade/Heresy, whereas the Lion seems to be already 'fulfilled' as a character in a sense?

 

Like.... He always comes across as someone who's character development and growth has already happened, whereas it's still happening with the others. The whole "a man amongst teenagers" in a sense when compared to the other Primarchs?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Gederas

[byrd9999]

One thing I've noticed with the Lion is this:

 

Most of the Primarchs have major development during the Crusade/Heresy, whereas the Lion seems to be already 'fulfilled' as a character in a sense?

 

Like.... He always comes across as someone who's character development and growth has already happened, whereas it's still happening with the others. The whole "a man amongst teenagers" in a sense?

 

You know what, I really like this take on it. If BL had gone more with the idea that the Lion is the adult in the room, a strong provider of leadership qualities, someone who excels at everything in a mature way, then that would have been great, and could have set up some great compare/contrast moments with the other primarchs.

 

But I feel we ended up with some broody edgelord who decapitates subordinates on a whim and has all his men walking on eggshells around him because he's a cranky teen who sulks :) 

[Fedor]

We've long had Guilliman for the orthodox high achiever "does everything he's supposed to very well and in a mature way" primarch. Dorn to a slightly lesser extent too.

 

I think the character work post Thorpe's Lion Novella has been quite solid for creating a distinctive indentity, that was when everyone seemed to get on the same page about him. It leads in well to what Forgeworld have done too. I like it a lot more than some of the new lore for the legion as a whole.

 

The classic fallen schism lore for the Dark Angels doesn't suit having the Lion as another Guilliman type imo.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Fedor

[Kelborn]

Just finished it.

Not the top tier of the series but still an enjoyable one.

I agree that it feels like a supplement for Crusade. Nonetheless, it was a good depiction of the First Legion.

 

It was lacking some memorable characters though but honestly, I wanted Duriel to survive. He seemed to be an interesting one. The Khrave were a cool enemy though the end came rather abrupt, imho.

 

Was the ritual scene just a random one or was the initiate suppose to be a survivor or someone we met earlier?

 

Overall I'd give it a 7/10

[Darkwrath121]

Was the ritual scene just a random one or was the initiate suppose to be a survivor or someone we met earlier?

 

Overall I'd give it a 7/10

My interpretation was that

it's Aravain, who stared directly into the psy-nuke, (temporarily?) affecting/wiping his mind.