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Chaos knights, and You


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#1
helterskelter

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By now chaps and chapettes, you will have heard about the new chaos knights, and whilst GW have posted up some articles introducing us to them, it's time we gave ourselves a nice look at what we can do.

"I like to move it, move it"
Infernal knight Rampager Dreadblade
Start with 12" movement
With Daemonic Hunger, +2 move, +1 advance, +1 charge
Add Daemonic Vigour from the dreadblade table, and on a 1/2/3, add 2" to his move.
Add the Quicksilver Throne of Slaanesh, you get to add 1 to advance or charge rolls
Use the Warlord Trait that gives you +1 to advance and charge rolls in the enemy deployment zone
And finally make use of the full tilt stratagem for advance and charge.
So assuming all goes to plan your knight:
Moves 12 + 4, advances d6 + 2 in most circumstances, and charges d6 + 2 in most circumstances. This gives a maximum threat range of 32" on a standard or long deployment assuming 24" between deployment zones, or if you use a funky map where you can waltz into the deployment zone 34"

"I want to hit it with my sword"
Iconoclast knight Rampager
+1 attack on the charge
Use the +1 attack warlord trait
Take the hungering teeth sword relic for +1 attack with it's use
Apply the vow of carnage for +1 attack with every 10 models slain.
The inital +3 on the charge with the sword is already a good buff, and against armies with a solid model count lets say you can get those first 10 kills quite happily to then boost to +4 on the charge to really start hammering big targets with a juicy -4 and flat 6 damage

More examples to follow when people start digging into the meat of the codex
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#2
Ghorgul

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The models looks sweet (love those 2 jointed legs) and melee knight looks intriguing option. The looks are a big factor here, regular loyal knights looked a little cheap and toy like with their legs.


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#3
Brother Tyler

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Renegade Knights go in the Lost and the Damned forum. msn-wink.gif


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#4
HeresyBeliever

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The Dual Gatling cannon is still a good option, 

 

Take the relic to ignore all hit modifiers, Dake the D3 wounds to make 1 of them S7 -3 3d 

Use the stratagem to ignore wound rounds against him of 1,2,3 

 

Its a solid little shooty unit

 

My big question is the Rampager vs the Renegade Gallant. 35 points for extra hits on roles of a 6. 

If you are going all out for the Irish dancer you will likely get more 6's.  But the chances are low when using the sword / fist. Those 35 points could be used else where I think

 

Model is amazing though!


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#5
Mushkilla

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It's not even an extra hit, it's an extra hit roll on 6s. It also only comes into play when you use the sword/fist, it doesn't work with feet.

That being said the price difference between the two models is 15pts. As the renegade gallant is 305 points befor weapons (although worded confusingly in the codex, so I imagine it will be clarified in the FAQ).

#6
HeresyBeliever

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The renegade Gallant is 305 + 30 sword + 35 fist + 2 Stubber = 372

The Rampager 320 + 30 sword + 35 fist + 2 Stubber = 387


Edited by HeresyBeliever, 08 July 2019 - 11:42 AM.

The Dice Gods always win. And Khorne always wins because there is always blood when there is war.  


#7
Mushkilla

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The renegade Gallant is 285 + 30 sword + 35 fist + 2 Stubber = 352

The Rampager 320 + 30 sword + 35 fist + 2 Stubber = 387

 

Despoilers with chainsaw and gauntlet are 305 points now before weapons, not 285 (source the Chaos Knight codex). So:

 

Renegade gallant is 305 + 30 + 35 + 2 = 372

 

So the difference is only 15pts like I said. smile.png


Edited by Mushkilla, 08 July 2019 - 11:44 AM.

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#8
HeresyBeliever

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So why is a new Chaos knight gallant more expensive than the imperial gallant? 


Edited by HeresyBeliever, 08 July 2019 - 12:40 PM.

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#9
Prot

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I see some unique opportunities for Knights and Chaos Space Marines. I've done some extensive review of it, but really I think the dual gatling Knight, and the Rampager are going to be the early front runners. Otherwise the Chaos Knight is contending with a lot of very powerful Forgeworld choices, and even the super heavies have the Legion keyword, and Daemon. Those are huge benefits that can be leveraged by CSM. It'll be interesting to see if the loss of those keywords has a lot of people doing a chaos space marine army with Chaos Knight assistance, or simply legion specific super heavies/Forgeworld dreads.


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#10
Drudge Dreadnought

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I suppose the big question is if these cheaper melee knights will replace the Kytan, considering it is also cheap and has Daemon.



#11
Doom Herald

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Personally, I'm worrying about whether we will see the Chaos Forge World Knights get updated to change "QUESTOR TRAITORIS" to "<QUESTOR TRAITORIS>." I'd love to try some warlord traits and relics on them.

Edited by Doom Herald, 09 July 2019 - 06:30 AM.


#12
DuskRaider

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Did their Imperial counterparts get updates? Personally I think it would be a smart business move for GW. They can release a PDF or something with updated rules and they don't have to produce a single new model in order to make sales.

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#13
Prot

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I suppose the big question is if these cheaper melee knights will replace the Kytan, considering it is also cheap and has Daemon.

 

It's not just that... it's the Legion Keyword. That's really big.

 

I've been playing a Kytan on and off, and really it goes beyond that. The new Chaos Knights will be competing against all the Forgeworld mini-juggernaut units that are 'dreadnoughts/Helbrutes' that take full advantage of anything that can target the Legion keyword. 

 

The mileage I get out of a MoP and an Dark Apostle are completely lost with a Chaos Knight. 

 

So the question I keep asking: Is it worth it to supplement a Chaos Space Marine army with a Chaos Knight? Right now I don't think so. Deredeo's, Decimators, Contemptors, Kytans, etc, etc, etc. They all can be healed, and assisted by the Disco lord, etc. 

 

Taking a full, super heavy Chaos Knight faction might be different. So far I'm a little disappointed how light on content the Chaos Knights seem to be. I wasn't expecting them to be Daemon, or have Legion Keyword, but aside from the 'cool factor' it's a bit of a hard sell. 

 

That being said I made my order, and I'm trying hard to find ways to convert loyalist kits I have (I such at conversions). But again I am doing this for cool factor. I don't even know if I'm buying into the dual Gatling build anymore as the points went up. 

 

I'm almost inclined to go into the dual battlecannon (which went down). Park it waaay in the back as the rest of my force goes forward.

 

The Despoiler class is interesting but almost completely a waste. In fact a lot of the new stuff that I *thought* was good, actually isn't. The Despoiler is one of those. I now realize it's "bonus" hits on a 6 are not usable in stomp mode. That means your already extremely damaging chainsword or fist are going to be more prone to overkill! Sill stuff. Not well thought out imo. And that's one of the unique dataslates in the 'new' faction.

 

I also thought the Tyrant class ability to shield (5++ invuln) chaos units wholly within 6" was a relic or something... it turns out it's a 2 (!) CP strat. Bummer. 


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#14
Stray

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Personally, I'm worrying about whether we will see the Chaos Forge World Knights get updated to change "QUESTOR TRAITORIS" to "<QUESTOR TRAITORIS>." I'd love to try some warlord traits and relics on them.

 

My suspicion is that Cerastus Knights will almost certainly work the same as the Imperial versions do. You can use relics and trails from the codex, but you'll need the Knight to be your actual warlord to do so - the trait and relic strats won't target them.

 

Literally everything else is mirrored, and clearly quite deliberately on GW's part, it stands to reason this will be too.



#15
Stray

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I suppose the big question is if these cheaper melee knights will replace the Kytan, considering it is also cheap and has Daemon.

 

So the question I keep asking: Is it worth it to supplement a Chaos Space Marine army with a Chaos Knight? Right now I don't think so. Deredeo's, Decimators, Contemptors, Kytans, etc, etc, etc. They all can be healed, and assisted by the Disco lord, etc. 

 

Taking a full, super heavy Chaos Knight faction might be different. So far I'm a little disappointed how light on content the Chaos Knights seem to be. I wasn't expecting them to be Daemon, or have Legion Keyword, but aside from the 'cool factor' it's a bit of a hard sell. 

 

 

I think many of us who primarily run Knight households, see this as a good thing. Knights as a soup ingredient have been meta defining. Internal codex balance (which is actually pretty good with regard to Knights) is thrown right out of the window when you have infantry to feed them crazy CP, and cover their deliberate weaknesses (the objective game for example, melee screening etc).

 

I'd like to see a move toward Knights not synergising so well with allies. I really would.

 

That said, you can take lists that have greater focus on Knights, and break the game to an even worse degree.

 

I touted a list a while back that featured a full Knight Lance, coupled with 60+ Plaguebearers (remember too, ALL Knights can summon now...). What happens when you take multiple twin avenger Knights, behind a screen of some of the hardest to kill infantry in the game, then spread out said infantry to control nearly the entire board?

 

That same build and variations on it, are all over the 40K competitive sub Reddit right now...



#16
Doom Herald

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Personally, I'm worrying about whether we will see the Chaos Forge World Knights get updated to change "QUESTOR TRAITORIS" to "<QUESTOR TRAITORIS>." I'd love to try some warlord traits and relics on them.

My suspicion is that Cerastus Knights will almost certainly work the same as the Imperial versions do. You can use relics and trails from the codex, but you'll need the Knight to be your actual warlord to do so - the trait and relic strats won't target them.

Literally everything else is mirrored, and clearly quite deliberately on GW's part, it stands to reason this will be too.
Well, without errata on the faction keywords, you won't even be able to use forge world knights in the same detachment because they have no common faction keywords with the new datasheets. I'm pretty sure they currently lack ANY keyword that can be used with any rules from the Codex.

Edit: it looks like the imperial units were fixed appropriately. I don't know how long that took though, or even if the thought to do so with chaos occurred to GW/FW. They seem to get sloppy with a lot of Chaos rules.

Edited by Doom Herald, 09 July 2019 - 05:38 PM.


#17
Stray

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Personally, I'm worrying about whether we will see the Chaos Forge World Knights get updated to change "QUESTOR TRAITORIS" to "<QUESTOR TRAITORIS>." I'd love to try some warlord traits and relics on them.

My suspicion is that Cerastus Knights will almost certainly work the same as the Imperial versions do. You can use relics and trails from the codex, but you'll need the Knight to be your actual warlord to do so - the trait and relic strats won't target them.

Literally everything else is mirrored, and clearly quite deliberately on GW's part, it stands to reason this will be too.
Well, without errata on the faction keywords, you won't even be able to use forge world knights in the same detachment because they have no common faction keywords with the new datasheets. I'm pretty sure they currently lack ANY keyword that can be used with any rules from the Codex.

Edit: it looks like the imperial units were fixed appropriately. I don't know how long that took though, or even if the thought to do so with chaos occurred to GW/FW. They seem to get sloppy with a lot of Chaos rules.

 

 

The Imperial Cerastus fix was not in print in time for the codex, but was called out by GW before the codex was released, and was in print in the codex FAQ two weeks later.

 

Cerastus Knights and the other FW entities have been usable in Renegade armies prior to, and during the period covered by Index: renegade knights.

It's a no brainer that they are going to continue having support.



#18
Doom Herald

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To be fair, GW misses a lot of no-brainers.
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#19
Stray

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To be fair, GW misses a lot of no-brainers.

 

Well, that's quite a fair point. True.

 

These days though, they do tend to fix what they miss in a reasonably timely fashion once the community has pointed it out.



#20
Excessus

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To be fair, GW misses a lot of no-brainers.

 

Well, that's quite a fair point. True.

 

These days though, they do tend to fix what they miss in a reasonably timely fashion once the community has pointed it out.

 

 

Indeed they do, though lately it seems that GW and FW has swapped places in how community-friendly they are. Hopefully they won't drop the ball on this one though. 


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#21
Prot

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I don't know if I believe a single Knight in (most) lists is going to be more than a gatekeeper in the tournament scene. The beauty of the mega Plaguebearer army is they are screening and protecting valuable characters that can't be interacted with for the most part. The single Knight will always be subject to the chance of never getting a shot off against that paper/scissors/rock kind of army.  Most hyper-competitive players won't take that large of a gamble going into a 5-6 round event. 

 

I was thinking at this more from a 'is it even worth it' kind of comparison with what we already have from Forgeworld, and right now I can't see it. Heck even two or three cheap Decimators can through 24 S8 shots that can be healed every turn, reroll auras applied, invuln increase, etc. etc. 

 

I think the big reason we see so many Forgeworld Dreadnoughts / Super heavies in Chaos lists is the one thing that the Chaos Codex really missed on.... any sort of real interaction with the Chaos Space Marine codex. 


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#22
Excessus

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I can't remember anymore what the hellwright does. Isn't he useful for knights?
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#23
HeresyBeliever

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http://bloodofkitten...ak-compilation/

 

So this source details the Thermal cannon in the codex being 55 points which is a 21 point reduction 


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#24
Mushkilla

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So this source details the Thermal cannon in the codex being 55 points which is a 21 point reduction


I can indeed confirm this. We had a discussion about the points changes to weapons here. I imagine they will be coming to Imperial Knights too in a FAQ or something. Avengers are up by 10pts, battle cannons are down by 10pts.

#25
Stray

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I can't remember anymore what the hellwright does. Isn't he useful for knights?

 

Somewhat, yes. He has a slightly more reliable repair he can use than the un-traited Ad Mech equivalents. He can 'curse' a vehicle for a mortal wound or two as well, and has some decent weapon options. Soul burners and the like such as the (fairly infamous) Decimator uses.

 

Mainly it's the repair that provides direct synergy with Knights though.

 

As a bonus though, they're a great excuse to use the ludicrously beautiful Scoria model in 40k. It makes a perfect 'Hellwright on Dark Abeyant'... given he's literally a named Hellwright on Dark Abeyant :P


Edited by Stray, 10 July 2019 - 01:30 PM.

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