Chaos knights, and You

[Excessus]

Haha, true that

 

Oh did you guys see the article about competitive chaos knights?

 

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/07/10/chaos-knight-codex-review/

Edited July 10, 2019 by Excessus

[Canadian_F_H]

Im definitly going to do a small heretical knight household. Probably 2 heavily magnetized questoris chassis and 2 hellverines and 2 warglaives. Basically exactly mirroring my loyalist household.

 

Should be fun.

[Stray]

Haha, true that

 

Oh did you guys see the article about competitive chaos knights?

 

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/07/10/chaos-knight-codex-review/

 

Good call, thank you. That's a pretty good article, and it's fair to say Nick knows what he's talking about.

 

That said, for my money I think he got a few things wrong. The perils strat works on every cast by an enemy Psyker - it doesn't have to be a doubles roll at all. That isn't bad given how vulnerable Knights generally are in the Psychic phase.

 

Tyrants are around 500 pts for the 'Valiant' analog, and I think it's better than it looks. The big problem with the Valiant was always it's weapon range and slow speed, but as an Infernal, we can counter that and make it just as fast at base as any other Knight. Better still, is what happens to its flamethrower when under Daemonic Surge...

 

...Say it with me now:

 

3D6, Str 8, Damage 3, Autohits.

 

That's around 11 wounds on an average roll to an enemy Knight. If you can get the harpoon to land (re-rolls and death hex will help here and get it to go off about 75% of the time) that's essentially a dead Knight in one volley of shooting.

 

No-one needs telling how effective it is against hordes too.

[Prot]

Haha, true that

 

Oh did you guys see the article about competitive chaos knights?

 

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/07/10/chaos-knight-codex-review/

 

Thanks for the link. I just read the article and I have said and agree with 90% of what he's saying. The thing I'd add is the Preceptor variant -might- approach usable with the relic gun. The good thing about the preceptor/warglaive is the mini knights give access to the household traits for cheaper without totally disrupting points for you main Chaos force and the re roll 1's on those Helverins isn't horrible. But that gun... that incredibly horrible gun... I've used the chaos variant in my games and it is without a doubt so horrible I'd never take it without it being a relic.

 

The thing he says I'm just not sold on is the single Knight support thing. I've said in my own Blog I believe the Forgeworld Dread variants are far more valuable for the points PLUS they get Daemin and Legion keywords which make your army much more buffable with characters, psychic powers, MoPs, Disco's, etc. etc.

 

And finally the single Knight is just too risky imo. I played my funsy Black Legion army against a solo Knight lead, multi Repulsor army and he even had a Redemptor. I didn't get first turn and wiped the Knight and Redemptor first turn. My list was admittedly for fun and he was struggling to make the Knight have an impact in his games (so he said to me.)

 

There's just a few too many things that can really put you in a huge (400+ point) hole if you're not careful.

[DuskRaider]

I don't really care about the competitive significance of the codex; it looks like a ton of fun to play with a lot of good or at least flavorful options and it should be good times. I can't wait to smash my friend's giant robots with my giant robots and not rely on a flavorless PDF to get me by.

[Excessus]

Oh, same here for sure! I never bring super-competitive lists and I'm aiming for a melee knight and a shooty one, and a few wardogs...

 

The main problem I have is to decide what colours to paint them!!!

[DuskRaider]

Mine are all spec'd for close range engagements. Back before the update, I almost picked up a Castellan but changed me mind at the last minute and got the Valiant instead. I'm really happy I made that choice now with the points change. That and it'll support my 2+ Rampagers (and Wardogs, all three have Thermal Spears).

[Excessus]

I'm also a little "Tyrant-curious" after Stray's post... :P

[DuskRaider]

I just saw that, sounds pretty tasty. I had planned on going Iconoclast due to running an actual House but I guess either way it doesn't matter. Both have some great options.

[Mushkilla]

Here's some of my thoughts/experience after a few games with the new codex. Might be somewhat controversial as it goes against a lot of the internet chatter around the new codex I'm reading.

 

I think the codex in some ways lends its self more to double ranged weapon despoiler class knights more than say melee/hybrid knights.

 

Iconoclast, makes stomp attacks very reliable with as you go from 12 attacks at -2 AP to 15 attacks at -3 AP. This makes double ranged weapon knights even better in melee. Hybrid knights on the other hand don’t really get much from having a melee weapon, other than being cheaper and having some niche utility against some tougher targets. The thing is you need to get to your target for the reaper/gauntlet to be effective. Even in terms of cost, why pay 30pts for a reaper when you can pay 25pts more for a thermal cannon (thermal cannons are 55pts in the chaos codex)?

 

Infernals you could boost shooting knights as much as hyrbrid knights with hybrid knights main advantage being that they are more point efficient when it comes to daemonic surge (paying fewer points per wound).

 

But when it comes to our stratagems and relic I feel we have a few that have more synergy with ranged weapons. The warp sight (ignore hit modifiers) is more potent the more ranged weapons your knight has. The same goes for trail of Destruction, Vow of the Beastslayer and Vow of Carnage. Same goes for dreadblade traits. Double thermal cannon (110pts for two!) knight with Vow of the Beastslayer (re-roll 1s to wound vs 8 wound or more models) and Path to Glory (re-roll to hit vs character and titanic) is a fantastic hunter for 395pts (cheaper than a hybrid Paladin/Errant/Warden).

 

Personally I see one of the strengths of the Chaos Knight codex is making our shooty knights into hybrid knights without having to sacrifice a ranged weapon.

 

As for dreadblades, I think they offer a lot of flexibility (I felt Nick disregarded them too readily, failing burdens doesn't necessarily mean loosing control). Almost all the pacts bar (thunderous charge) are good: Path to glory (re-roll hits against targets that are characters or titanic), Arch Fiend (6" heroic intervention great for area denial on all types of knights), Daemonic Vigor (all rolls are great on shooting knights, +2 movement, +1WS, +1BS), Galvanised Hull (reducing AP-1 is really strong against armies that mostly have AP-1 Ork Lootas/Tau missile pods). Profane Secret is for when you just want an extra CP and boost your leadership making you less like to be affected by burdens (or powers like mind control). The point is you can choose on the fly after seeing your opponents list, which makes them very powerful.

 

Burdens, I pick Forsaken it makes it less likely for you to fail your burden in the first place, effectively making it a leadership 9 test as opposed to a leadership 8 test (you have to roll under you leadership for burdens not equal or under like leadership tests). Then Warp Fugue (strike last doesn’t really cripple shooting knights as they tend to charge none combat specialist units). So even when you do fail a burden with those two traits it isn’t particularly crippling. If not being able to use stratagems on your knight is too much of a risk to your game plan, and you don’t mind failing burdens more often then Volatile Reactor (at the end of phase in which you took one or more wounds take a mortal wound on a 4+) is another option.

 

Hope that's useful to someone. :)

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mushkilla

[Excessus]

It is, thanks for the write-up. What do you think about the wardogs then? Same as Nick? 

 

I was aiming to start with a small allied detachment for my CSM with a proper knight and two wardogs. 

[Toomanyprojects]

From the screenshot I have seen, the despoiler with gauntlet/chainsword is 305 points including the cc weapons. Making it a superb bargain choice for a dedicated cc Knight (+1A warlord trait, relic sword giving +1A or relic gauntlet hitting even harder than normal, iconoclast giving +1A in most situations and vow of carnage is also rather handy for yet another attack).

 

Blender o’death coming along to mulch ya methinks.

 

I think they will also have to modify the 3 entries from one data sheet tourney rule for these guys. With so much being based around the despoiler chassis, it’s damn hard to get a 1750 point army without using more than three of them.

 

Ps - I also want a psyker Knight :)

[Excessus]

Ps - I also want a psyker Knight

 

We have one, sortof...though just with smite I guess...

[Toomanyprojects]

 

 

Ps - I also want a psyker Knight

We have one, sortof...though just with smite I guess...

It’s better than nothing :) oddly enough, that’s a good relic to stick on a cc Knight. Adds a little more damage output and the ‘always explodes’ but means you’ll take some of them with you when you go :)

[Excessus]

Looking forward to the conversion ;)

[Mushkilla]

It is, thanks for the write-up. What do you think about the wardogs then? Same as Nick? 

 

I was aiming to start with a small allied detachment for my CSM with a proper knight and two wardogs.

I like war dogs. But mainly because the majority of my force is knights with a small daemon detachment and some points left for summoning (being able to summon screens of brimstones for 30pts, Nurgle heralds for shrivelling pox, flamers etc). I digress. They are fast, and synergise well with both household traits, infernals make the melee variety really fast (movement 16" +1 to charge), going from T7 to T8 is great, as is boosting the strength of the thermal spear to 9. Iconoclasts make them even better in melee. The shoot variety I find useful mainly for their range, their firepower is nice but unreliable (although boosting one of their auto cannons to S8 D4 is fun). The downside with them is that that they become useless the minute they get touched by anything in close combat, so these days I'm leaning more to the melee variety. But as allies, and in the context of chaos the shooty variety give you valuable ranged firepower (which armies like daemons really lack).

 

The other reason I like war dogs is you can run two super heavy detachments (2 war dogs and a despoiler each). This gives you 3 extra CP per detachment, a higher model count for playing the mission and you get an extra Dreadblade (one Dreadblade per detachment can pick pacts/burdens) and I'm a fan of Dreadblades as already mentioned.

[Mushkilla]

From the screenshot I have seen, the despoiler with gauntlet/chainsword is 305 points including the cc weapons.

Sorry to disappoint you but just the poor wording in the codex. The section says points per model not including wargear. It has a row saying knight dispoiler with 1 reaper chainsword and 1 thunderstrike gauntlet, then you still have to pay for the stubber, the gauntlet and the sword bringing you up to 372 points (you are paying an extra 20 points just for the ability to take those weapons). Its pretty confusing, but basically it's an awkward way of increasing the cost of the gallant. Whenever a codex doesn't want you to pay for wargear it either prices said wargear at 0 or has a separate section for point per model including wargear.

 

Three things point to it being a point increase and not a points decrease:

 

1) Some play testers have said this is the case (Jeff Robinson and Reece).

2) If the galant is 307 points and the Rampager is 387 points... that would mean the rampager is paying 80 points to maybe get an extra hit on 6s when not using titanic feet. Even GW doesn't write rules that badly, especially in this new era of GW actually balancing their games.

3) The Gallant is already underpriced decreasing its point cost further seem too good to be true.

 

This will almost certainly be clarified in the FAQ. Happy to be wrong though.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mushkilla

[Toomanyprojects]

 

From the screenshot I have seen, the despoiler with gauntlet/chainsword is 305 points including the cc weapons.

Sorry to disappoint you but just the poor wording in the codex. The section says points per model not including wargear. It has a row saying knight dispoiler with 1 reaper chainsword and 1 thunderstrike gauntlet, then you still have to pay for the stubber, the gauntlet and the sword bringing you up to 372 points (you are paying an extra 20 points just for the ability to take those weapons). Its pretty confusing, but basically it's an awkward way of increasing the cost of the gallant. Whenever a codex doesn't want you to pay for wargear it either prices said wargear at 0 or has a separate section for point per model including wargear.

 

Three things point to it being a point increase and not a points decrease:

 

1) Some play testers have said this is the case (Jeff Robinson and Reece).

2) If the galant is 307 points and the Rampager is 387 points... that would mean the rampager is paying 80 points to maybe get an extra hit on 6s when not using titanic feet. Even GW doesn't write rules that badly, especially in this new era of GW actually balancing their games.

3) The Gallant is already underpriced decreasing its point cost further seem too good to be true.

 

This will almost certainly be clarified in the FAQ. Happy to be wrong though.

The FAQ should clear it up, and I recognise that this is something that is subject to interpretation - but to me the fact that it specifically says ‘Despoiler WITH gauntlet and sword’ in the name while giving a points cost which is higher than the basic chassis means that the wargear is included in that specific case. Agree that anything added on top of that wargear (Stubber, meltagun, pod etc) needs paying.

 

Anyway, as you said, let us wait for the FAQ which is invariably on its way

[Excessus]

Oooh, so you can surge the wardogs too? That could make them little glass cannons. :)

[Prot]

In my experience a lot of non-competitive players still seek the same info..at least wanting to know what works and doesn't. Personally I play in a fairly competitive environment but have a few outlets that are all over the map on competitiveness. 

 

One thing I'd like to note is some codexes are simply extremely strong with nearly little effort and by playing 'fluffy' they can steam roll a lot of armies. (Orks / Asrta are a great example of this). I find with my Chaos Space Marines in general, I have to work much, much harder to make lists that even compete on that level. 

 

That being said I am still experimenting with the single Knight support idea, and I'm still really leaning away from it. My last test game against Orks with dual Shok attack, and Lootas... it was fantastically easy for the Orks to take down a Knight in T1.  That's two games in a row where the Knight doesn't get a shot off with two different opponents. (I remember this is why I stopped using a single Knight with my AdMech).

 

I still find a hard sell in gaming terms will be a single Knight over Forgeworld assets. 

 

But I still keep trying and this might be a BIG mistake but I am currently putting together a Tyrant/Valiant for my CSM. I'm not sure how I'm going to make this work. BUT I think Death Hex will play a role in it. 

 

For now I see the Valiant *possibly* having a 5++ on Rhino(s) loaded with Havocs. In even non-competitive play my opponents go after my Havocs right away. While I don't know how to really summon with Knight, I have been using a Master of Possession to summon.... something. I dunno what. (I've been using a Contorted Epitome to stop people from retreating from CC. BUT I think that's the wrong unit for Knights.)

 

The Valiant might be a 500 point mistake but I want to see if I can make it work.

 

The other 'oddball' that I seem to like is a rearguard dual battlecannon Knight. The points went down a bit, and something has to stay back.

 

A side bar to this is indirect fire. I'm finding too many armies I play are just hammering my Knights with indirect, or hiding things the Knights have difficulty with on terrain tables: Mostly Tau Drones, and Grots.

 

A final thing I'll add is I've always liked Armigers; both variants. And I don't understand the 'bonus' of CP they seem to get with a Despoiler class/ Desecrator? But I can honestly see using 4 and two bigger Knights (including a relic armed Desecrator).

 

@Mushkilla,

 

thanks for the extra info. Some interesting things in there, like the Iconoclast rules actually lending credence to a Shooty Knight. (I know Nick only liked the Iconoclast for its strats). Also the Dreadblades have been largely written off but they don't seem so bad.

 

I obviously haven't decided anything final yet, and I've got a lot of loyalist Knights I can convert but an additional uncertainty I have is how the Relics/Strats/house rules work when you only take a Super Heavy Aux? 

 

If you put Daemons in reserves... IE Reinforcements wouldn't it be easier to use a Master of Possession to get them in play as I have been doing on T1? (Move, advance, Psychic Summon on 4D6)

[Guiltysparc]

I've been thinking about a khorne themed army with demons and a detachment of choppy knights.  Something like A rampager and two warglaives and then a pretty simple battlion of khorne demons and bloodthirsters.  You'd get a pile of flesh hounds running forward in front of the a couple bloodthirsters and the knights and then 3 units of bloodletters to either set up on backfield objectives or deepstrike on more forward objectives.  With all the movement buffs available for the knights, everything in the army would be crazy fast.

[Mushkilla]

I still find a hard sell in gaming terms will be a single Knight over Forgeworld assets.

That's one of the hard things with running a single knight. He's just too much of a target. With a mostly pure knights list, the easier way for your opponent to get first strike (or score a point for destroy more models) is to target your War Dogs. Another reason I quit like War Dogs in that they are resilient enough that they can draw a bunch of fire power, and fragile enough that they are a reliable target to get first strike etc. With allies this becomes less appealing as it's easy enough for your opponent to get first strike killing some infantry and then they can put all their anti tank fire into your knight and hope they get lucky.

 

While I don't know how to really summon with Knight, I have been using a Master of Possession to summon.... something. I dunno what. (I've been using a Contorted Epitome to stop people from retreating from CC. BUT I think that's the wrong unit for Knights.)

Chaos Knights that are characters, have the character and chaos keyword. That means they can summon (It's also in the chaos knight index FAQ). The only real downside to summoning is it prevents your knight from moving, and can cause a mortal wound on a double (d3 on a triple). Other then that It's like deep striking units within 12" of your knight without having to pay CP (great with flamers of tzeentch as they have 12" flamers so can fire the turn they come in). Speaking of flamers you can use them to clear screens so that your knight can fire into characters (tends to surprise people). In general it provides a lot of flexibility, as you can summon things when you need them (for example Infernal Enrapturess against psychic heavy armies). You can summon scoring units turn 4,5 and 6 (great in the 4 pillars eternal war mission if you have lost all your troops). You can summon turn 1 making for a handy counter punch if your opponent plays too aggressively.

 

As for why no master of possession? Regular summoning is more reliable than the master of possession as it can't be denied and you don't have to cast it first either and most of the things you want to summon can be summoned reliably on 2-3 dice. I also currently don't run Chaos Space marine allies. If I run a battalion, it's normally 3x3 nurglings (easy to hide and resilient to mortar fire), 1 Nurgle herald with shrivelling pox (normally kept in reserve), 1 tzeentch Herald for Gaze of Fate (extra re-rolls).

 

A final thing I'll add is I've always liked Armigers; both variants. And I don't understand the 'bonus' of CP they seem to get with a Despoiler class/ Desecrator? But I can honestly see using 4 and two bigger Knights (including a relic armed Desecrator).

 You get 3 CP for a super heavy detachment as long as it has at least one titanic unit int it.

 

...how the Relics/Strats/house rules work when you only take a Super Heavy Aux?

You only get access to stratagems if you take a super heavy aux. Like regular knights (so no house traits, no relics/warlord traits without using a stratagem to give relic/warlord traits).

 

If you put Daemons in reserves... IE Reinforcements wouldn't it be easier to use a Master of Possession to get them in play as I have been doing on T1? (Move, advance, Psychic Summon on 4D6)

I rarely put daemons in reserve, I just summon them as I don't always know what I need and that way I don't have to pay CP either.

[Prot]

Thanks. That's a lot of clear answers.

 

 

 

You only get access to stratagems if you take a super heavy aux. Like regular knights (so no house traits, no relics/warlord traits without using a stratagem to give relic/warlord traits).
 

 

So in tournament games where I'm facing single Knights with a relic... they  must be using their main "Battalion's" extra relic strat to do this? Since it appears otherwise a solo Auxiliary Knight gets no strats, no house rules, and no relics?

 

 

I may have to go back to Thousand Sons to support this. I really don't want to get back into Nurgle as I sold 90% of it. But flamers are good.. .Ahriman and Thousand Sons with 18" Death Hex is also good.... there might be something there as I'm kind of struggling with the regular CSM book.

[Toomanyprojects]

Edit - better answer given by someone else :) Edited July 11, 2019 by Toomanyprojects

[Mushkilla]

So in tournament games where I'm facing single Knights with a relic... they  must be using their main "Battalion's" extra relic strat to do this? Since it appears otherwise a solo Auxiliary Knight gets no strats, no house rules, and no relics?

No, super heavy aux detachments get access to the chaos knight stratagems, but not the free relic/trait and house rules. Chaos Knights have a stratagem for giving a knight a relic and a stratagem for giving a knight a warlord trait (just like imperial knights). So if you were running a solo Aux Knight with your chaos marines you could spend 2CP (1 on each stratagem) to give your chaos knight a warlord trait and a relic. If that makes sense? Basically the exact same thing imperial soup armies were doing to give their Raven Castellan Ion Bulwark and Cawls Wrath.

 

I may have to go back to Thousand Sons to support this. I really don't want to get back into Nurgle as I sold 90% of it. But flamers are good.. .Ahriman and Thousand Sons with 18" Death Hex is also good.... there might be something there as I'm kind of struggling with the regular CSM book.

The other option is a battalion of red corsairs: 3x5 chaos space, Huron and a Warpsmith. That gives you 8 extra CP (9 if you make Huron your warlord) and Huron has access to death hex. It's a reasonable CP battery and access to death hex for a relatively affordable 360pts.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mushkilla