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Vanguard Veterans

Vangaurd Veterans Space Marines Melee Units

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44 replies to this topic

#26
Lemondish

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The trick to killing genestealers is to just put as many shots as you can into them. Thunderhammers arnt going to make them any easier to kill. Actually it will make them harder to kill because you’ll be at -1 to hit.

Always have a screening unit up front. Before they get within charging distance you’ll need to push your screen in close, that way he can’t move past them. Put as many shots into them as you can. If you can get them below 10 models they go from 4 attacks to 3. That means 10 genestealers get 40 attacks, and 9 get 27 attacks.

If your screening with intercessors, you might be better off charging him to get him below 10 models. 5 intercessors can actually do 11 attacks hitting on 3’s and wounding on 4’s in close combat, which is one more attack than if they shoot. The -1 ap of their shots doesn’t matter because of lightning reflexes (there might be a hive trait that gives them a bonus though.)

That’s one more attack then if you wait for overwatch and you only hit on 6’s there. It was worth it for me but I was also trying to keep him from getting any closer, and it worked.

Ps, if your against Primaris, sternguard basicly do the same thing but with less wounds.

The problem with this particular Genestealer player is that there's nothing to screen against since he likes to keep nearly half his units (especially the Genestealers) in reserve. By the time they show up on the table they're well within charging distance. The best I was able to do in my last game was spend the command points for Auspex scan when they showed up, but even that doesn't thin them out too much. But you're right about the Vanguard setup I was initially suggesting, that wouldn't do much against the large number of models, more suited to bashing a tank or something. Which is something I'm still interested in being able to do, lol. But I now realize that I'm trying to solve two different problems I face on the tabletop with this single unit, which I now see just isn't feasible.

Don't count them out of the running there. That 3rd place list from FMGT was built to do both jobs very well. It's all about size in that case.

#27
Claws and Effect

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10 Vanguard with claws escorted by Shrike or a Chaplain will shred a unit of Genestealers.

31 attacks rerolling all failed hits and wounds. Unless it's a huge brood you'll kill all or most of them in 1 fight phase (unless your dice hate you as much as mine do).

The downside of Clawguard is that the things they excel at killing can be killed just as easily by something else that isn't a 1 trick pony.

#28
War Angel

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Genestealers have 3 attacks if under 10, so it takes 4 of them just to have enough attacks to kill a 5 man intercessor squad with 100% success rate.


What?
12 genestealer attacks do an average of 2.5 unsaved wounds. That means one dead intercessor. You need 48 genestealer attacks to generate enough unsaved wounds to have a "100% success rate" mathematically.

By “100% success” I mean every die lands a success. Less than 10 attacks couldn’t kill the squad even if the dice were loaded. So three genestealers can’t even kill them.

Obviously you open yourself up to further charges, but chances are there’s plenty of units that would be charging you anyway. You’ll have to make that decision for yourself. But to say that 11 attacks hitting on 3’s and wounding on 4’s is less than 10 attacks hitting on 6’s and wounding on 4’s is a joke.

So long as I’m not charging anything else, and I probably won’t be, then I’m reducing the number of attacks he can do to me, and pushing him further from the objective, or my gun line.
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#29
Captain Idaho

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It doesn't get killed in overwatch though...5 shooting do an average of 0.51 unsaved wounds. You'll still kill it in melee, but that's not really my point.
I'd never advocate bad tactics like charging in to kill off a straggler while there's counter charge units lurking. But it's misleading to assert what units can and can't do without using facts. "4 genestealers kill 5 intercessors 100%" "more than 3 genestealers there isn't a troop that should charge them". Come on, get away from hyperbole.


I never said anything about 100% performance.

Anyway, yes we can all agree that there might be a circumstance where a charge might be an advantage.

But I think advice that Intercessors can charge and win against things like Genestealers will just give folk the wrong idea on how to play against them.

Shoot Genestealers. Don't charge them.

#30
SkimaskMohawk

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I didn't say you did, war angel did and since clarified what he meant.

And do know what gives people the wrong idea on how to play? Presenting value statements as facts.

Kill genestealers in the best way for the circumstance. Make informed decisions based off math and context, not misinformation.

#31
Black Blow Fly

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If the stealer unit has been whittled down it’s okay to charge them with Intercessors.

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#32
sfPanzer

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It's a tradeoff, really. Charging them of course does more damage than relying on Overwatch, however it also means that the Genestealer unit gets an additional fight phase it wouldn't have otherwise.

 

There are also a bunch of other factors one can't evaluate in a vacuum.

Not charging them yourself gives your opponent the opportunity to move them how he wants to and also a pile-in move while charging them would pin them for a turn exactly where they are (if you survive the fight phase that is). Also not charging them lets your opponent shoot your unit before charging it, potentially wiping them out which would open other targets for the Genestealer unit or weaken them enough so they can just roll over them.


Edited by sfPanzer, 11 July 2019 - 02:04 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#33
Captain Idaho

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Well yeah that was mostly my point, if I didn't make it clear enough. There are definitely circumstances to make a charge but the way it reads here, in this thread, is Intercessors can charge Genestealers and expect to win. I am providing an experience based counter point to that so someone who asks advice won't just jump straight in and expect their Primaris to beat everything in an assault.

Thankfully, the discussion has elaborated on the circumstances charging Genestealers can be beneficial rather than a more vague advice to charge using Intercessors.

And if you're unsure you should default to; don't charge Genestealers with Troops!

Moving it back on track...

Vanguard can indeed operate as a counter strike unit(s). Behind infantry screens they can rush out and wipe out the units that are revealed. Also, by ensuring you have said screen you get more use out of Auspex Scan.

Revealing units in front of a unit of Centurions will scare the willies out of most players so use this to force an opponent to reveal their army elsewhere. It's a whole different topic most likely but you can almost dictate to an opponent where they attack just be doing this, enabling your limited numbers to effectively cover the table.

You have to ensure you use Centurions are the foremost of course which can be dangerous to against Genestealer Cult, but Overwatch on 54 shots is still nice and should cull a few if you need to.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 11 July 2019 - 02:08 PM.

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#34
sfPanzer

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Well yeah that was mostly my point, if I didn't make it clear enough. There are definitely circumstances to make a charge but the way it reads here, in this thread, is Intercessors can charge Genestealers and expect to win.

 
Yeah that's definitely not the case. No Marine unit, not even most of our own melee units as sad as that is, should expect to charge and win against a proper melee unit that isn't heavily(!) crippled already.


Edited by sfPanzer, 11 July 2019 - 02:09 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#35
Lemondish

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Well yeah that was mostly my point, if I didn't make it clear enough. There are definitely circumstances to make a charge but the way it reads here, in this thread, is Intercessors can charge Genestealers and expect to win.

 
Yeah that's definitely not the case. No Marine unit, not even most of our own melee units as sad as that is, should expect to charge and win against a proper melee unit that isn't heavily(!) crippled already.

 

 

Though I will say that Veteran Intercessors with a hidden power fist has been pretty surprisingly effective. 


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#36
War Angel

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Sorry, wasn’t trying to say they would win. Just that they should do a little more damage and stall them a little further back.

Of course, they could survive depending on how much previous damage, but you should be writing them off at this point.

Back to CC units, a captain on bike with thunder hammer and chainsword upgraded to the teeth of terra has a decent amount of attacks, can’t be targeted by shooting, and can take on hordes and elites alike. (Not big hordes of course)
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#37
Lemondish

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Sorry, wasn’t trying to say they would win. Just that they should do a little more damage and stall them a little further back.

Of course, they could survive depending on how much previous damage, but you should be writing them off at this point.

Back to CC units, a captain on bike with thunder hammer and chainsword upgraded to the teeth of terra has a decent amount of attacks, can’t be targeted by shooting, and can take on hordes and elites alike. (Not big hordes of course)

 

Make him Crimson Fists with Tenacious Opponent and you'll actually do even better against hordes with all those extra attacks as well. 

 

But back to VV. I think big squads with a mixture of double chainsword dudes for eating AP -, chainsword + storm shield for eating AP anything else, and like 3 hidden Thunder Hammers with chainswords would be a good blending unit with embedded hammers for high damage potential against the right targets. It's all about pulling double duty on the defensive and offensive side - not allowing your high damage potential to fade as you take casualties because even if the amount of Str4 AP- attacks are reduced you end up with those thunder hammer guys staying around for awhile more than they would otherwise.



#38
quasistellar

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I agree with that. Don’t put thunder hammers with your storm shields. Personally I would run them with no fewer than 5 storm shields per squad, and always squads of 10 for ablative wounds. Pair them with a chaplain if you go for thunder hammers or power fists.

Or just go full 10x storm shield and chainsword and use them to just tie up enemy units in combat. I also feel like 5x storm shield/chainswords and 5x dual lightning claw would be fun for reliably clearing chaff and for getting through invulnerable saves.

#39
Lemondish

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I agree with that. Don’t put thunder hammers with your storm shields. Personally I would run them with no fewer than 5 storm shields per squad, and always squads of 10 for ablative wounds. Pair them with a chaplain if you go for thunder hammers or power fists.

Or just go full 10x storm shield and chainsword and use them to just tie up enemy units in combat. I also feel like 5x storm shield/chainswords and 5x dual lightning claw would be fun for reliably clearing chaff and for getting through invulnerable saves.

 

That's definitely a good one, too. 

 

Plus, lightning claws look awesome.



#40
Captain Idaho

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I can confirm that Lightning Claws can also bully even T5 and multi wound models, with weight of attacks combined with reroll wounds.

#41
ImperialTuba

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I agree with that. Don’t put thunder hammers with your storm shields. Personally I would run them with no fewer than 5 storm shields per squad, and always squads of 10 for ablative wounds. Pair them with a chaplain if you go for thunder hammers or power fists.

Or just go full 10x storm shield and chainsword and use them to just tie up enemy units in combat. I also feel like 5x storm shield/chainswords and 5x dual lightning claw would be fun for reliably clearing chaff and for getting through invulnerable saves.

I understand the logic behind having a squad of 10 so that the high damage weapons can last longer, but I'm a little hesitant to immediately purchase two boxes of these guys without having any experience using them. Might start with one and see how I like them. I have yet to reach the 2,000 point threshold in the games I've played, so I'm hoping they can still have a meaningful impact on the battlefield despite only being five models. I hadn't given much thought to Lightning claws before, but now that I know about them a bit more they sound tempting. But I do still like the high damage of the Thunder hammers. 

 

Here's what I'm thinking of starting with: Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Bolt/Plasma pistol, two marines with dual Lightning Claws, two marines with Storm Shields and Bolt/Plasma pistol or Chainswords.  



#42
Captain Idaho

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You might find just 5 a bit of a challenge to get much out of since they have a small margin of fluffed dice rolls.
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#43
sfPanzer

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I agree, some units only start to shine when you have more/bigger. 5 will get shot off of the board so quickly, you won't really get to know them. Just like having only one Predator in your army will never work out well for you.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#44
ImperialTuba

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Very well, ten it is. Lol 



#45
Captain Idaho

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I got 5 Vanguard and 5 Assault Marines. Mixing the boxes to get more individual looking models.

Plus you get so many bits. The Eviscerator alone is great to have as you can use it to represent the Teeth of Terra on a character too.
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