Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Chaos Space Marines and Apocalypse


  • Please log in to reply
4 replies to this topic

#1
Iron_Within

Iron_Within

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 957 posts
  • Location:The Charybdis Rift
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

I've got a game under my belt now and had a good look through the Warhammer 40k Apocalypse rules specifically from a Chaos Space Marine perspective. I didn't play with Death Guard, Thousand Sons, R&H or Daemons so I'm not including them in this.  I'm going to go through some general stuff then go into specific units that I have encountered, so on that note, I'm not going into units I have zero experience of.

 

Characters lack survivability.

So this caught me off guard, I was expecting like 40k my characters would be good in their own right, however they are generally weak (save the Lord Discordant which is a vehicle really). The Apoc rules for targeting characters as they stand mean that they are very easy to snipe out, particularly with barrage characters. My Warmaster was killed on the first turn by sniping Basilisks.

 

Legion traits are rolled into Command assets. I don't really see any duds in there. I used the Iron Warriors traits which TBH are better than the 40k equivalents (Iron Within, Iron Without gives a 5+ extra save against damage, like Feel no pain, and Siege Lords allows your army to target 1 building or units in 1 defensible position with SAT or SAP, meaning that your Lascannons for one turn are better than killing garrisoned infantry than your chaincanons).

 

Don't expect a "Fire twice" or other things that are the mainstay of Chaos at 40k. Chaos functions similarly in Apoc, but not the same.

MSU is not very good, having one wound is a good way to die, bigger units to do damage are better, as there are ways to heal damage (Nurgle marked units have a command asset to regain wounds, then their is a general "regain D3 Wounds" asset).

Daemon Shell command asset is great, it's just nasty. 

 

The Heretic Astartes innate ability is re-rolling 1's on wounding, one D12's. This sounds mediocre, but I actually quite rate it, as that frustrating 1 is eliminated.

 

Unit Specifics

 

HQ's

Chaos Lords are not terribly good in combat unless you've got the right command assets on them (like finest hour). 5 Power, I used them with support units, Havocs with Lascannons on aimed fire at hitting on 2's rerolling 1's with the Lord nearby. Like all characters vulnerable to artillery. In my game I had 3 units of Lascannons Havocs and thanks to the Lords Rerolls (and the Heretic Astartes re-roll 1's) they ripped through any vehicle they fired at.

 

Sorcerers are the cheapest HQ at 3 power (along with the Executioner guy) and this is in general for Psykers, as psychic powers are command asset cards in apoc rather than single abilities. This on paper makes them less useful, however I found having one as backup meant it was easy to keep my command asset cards coming in and the psychic powers they have in apoc are far more powerful than in 40k - Warp Time is still there, don't worry :P

 

Warpsmiths are cheap at 4 power and their ability to repair vehicles is brilliant. They are a dedicated support unit and quite survivable.

 

Daemon Princes I unfortunately don't really rate in apocalypse. They are "heavy" Characters, meaning they do not get the -1 to hit, neither do they have the 4+ save of the Lord Discordants. At 10 power they are double the cost of the Chaos Lord. My Daemon Prince never saw combat as they were sniped out. I would give a second look to the Khorne Daemon Prince, which has a SAT/SAP of 5+ which is good. My bias may change over time, especially if put in a horde with Daemon Engines for the re-roll 1's.

 

Daemon Engines

Daemon Engines in general in Apoc are really good for one reason; "Infernal Regeneration". In Apocalypse at the start of every turn (action phase) DE units regain one wound and remove a damage marker. This way more significant than in 40k; it is the equivalent of regaining half your wounds that several units tried to strip off you. 1 of my 2 Heldrakes survived the whole battle despite significant fire.

 

Helldrakes as an assault unit are mediocre, however with their speed and their baleflamer (don't take the Autocannon...) they are good at being an anti infantry unit with the ability to harass shooting units. I shut down 3 Leman Russes by charging the Helldrakes in and shutting them down. They can't hurt anything for toffee in combat but they have decent shooting. Baleflamers autohit so are good at sniping characters. Overall they're decent, do not think of them as an anti air unit though, they're anti infantry and harrasing.

 

Lord Discordants on their own are a bit pricey at 13 power. Always take the Baleflamer. They are as resilient as a 5 man terminator unit (more later) with better Ld and better move. They are best at buffing other Daemon Engines like in 40k and getting close. Take them with other Daemon Engines

 

Maulerfiends are excellent with Lord Discordants, they hit hard but are let down by their BS/WS, like 40k. At 8 power they are decently priced have half decent survivability in groups.

 

Defiler I didn't get much experience from this, but at 3 wounds it's tough as nails with decent shooting and combat, though as it's not a titanic unit you'll have to choose between combat or shooting, it's better in combat IMO

 

Heavy Support

Havocs are glass cannons, they only have 1 wound, but Chaincannons, lascannons and Missile launchers are good, no idea why you'd take Autocannons or Heavy bolters if you have a reason not to. Their big weakness is they only have 1 wound, even garisoned they die quite quickly. They are a reason I am considering dusting off my chaos Bastion and Bunkers as if they were just a little more survivable they would be nasty as all hell.

 

Obliterators have a cost of an Imperial Knight for 3 but hit really hard in shooting. They will destroy almost anything they touch. I really want to field my force of 18 but at 150 power that's half an army.

 

Elites

Helbrutes are great. They do it both, I had my Lascannon/fist Helbrutes managed to counter charge a deep strike and still hit hard. I am biased as I love walking coffins, but they do seem like a great all rounder. In addition, their "Crazed" rule is better as a D6 is rolled per blast marker, that's situational, but still good. 

 

Terminators IMO are going to the hidden gem of apocalypse for Traitor and loyalist scum. They are decent in combat and shooting (against infantry mainly) but their main benefit is that they can Deep strike and they have a good save. Take in units of 10 if you can, it's both cheaper and they have better survivability.

 

Troops

Chaos Space Marines are "okay", they fill that all round niche. They are certainly better than in 40k. They are best at taking objectives in a Batallion.

Cultists have gone back to their old role. I took them in two ways, either as a minimum sized unit to bulk out a battalion and be annoying or as a 40 man road block. 40 cultists just get in the way, fast and deep striking units mean first turn charges are very common, they would survive at least 1 turn and at 8 wounds they would take more than 1 turn to shift them.

 

 

Transports, Rhinos in particular needs a special mention. transports are both better and more necessary in apocalypse for their transport speed and 


  • Iron-Daemon Forge, RolandTHTG, sebs_evo7 and 1 other like this

gallery_29004_9303_844.png

“From Iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany. And may it forever be so."

The 144th Grand Company "The Reforged" fight in the http://alephsector.blogspot.co.uk/


#2
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 18,755 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal, Dal'yth Sept

Characters lack survivability.
So this caught me off guard, I was expecting like 40k my characters would be good in their own right, however they are generally weak (save the Lord Discordant which is a vehicle really). The Apoc rules for targeting characters as they stand mean that they are very easy to snipe out, particularly with barrage characters. My Warmaster was killed on the first turn by sniping Basilisks.


Very true, but it's the same for everyone to be fair. They also have much less impact than in 40k which makes sense when you think about it. It's apocalypse and the whole thing works on a detachment level so there's much much much less focus on individual characters.
 

Legion traits are rolled into Command assets. I don't really see any duds in there. I used the Iron Warriors traits which TBH are better than the 40k equivalents (Iron Within, Iron Without gives a 5+ extra save against damage, like Feel no pain, and Siege Lords allows your army to target 1 building or units in 1 defensible position with SAT or SAP, meaning that your Lascannons for one turn are better than killing garrisoned infantry than your chaincanons).


I feared that's the case but good to see it confirmed. From what I've seen so far many Command Assets are MUCH stronger than Stratagems at least (orbital strike for example is super devastating in Apocalypse and trash in 40k) so it doesn't sound too bad a decision from GW. Just different. Again, the focus is less on the individual units and how they fight but rather on you as a commander and how you ... well ... command your individual detachments.

 

Don't expect a "Fire twice" or other things that are the mainstay of Chaos at 40k. Chaos functions similarly in Apoc, but not the same.
MSU is not very good, having one wound is a good way to die, bigger units to do damage are better, as there are ways to heal damage (Nurgle marked units have a command asset to regain wounds, then their is a general "regain D3 Wounds" asset).
Daemon Shell command asset is great, it's just nasty. 

The Heretic Astartes innate ability is re-rolling 1's on wounding, one D12's. This sounds mediocre, but I actually quite rate it, as that frustrating 1 is eliminated.

 
I think the most important reason why MSU doesn't necessarily work well in Apocalypse is that units have to pass LD tests whenever they have blast markers on them or they'll suffer a damage marker (just one marker max regardless of how high you rolled if I'm right?) which can quickly mean the death of multiple small units but lets a big unit survive crippled or even uncrippled if they keep more than half their wounds.
Also the fact that MSU can easily get pulled out of formation which can quickly snowball into a very crippled detachment.
 
Considering that LD is relevant again in Apocalypse and the lowered LD values across the board I wish we had the loyalists ability to re-roll those to be honest. The re-rolling 1s on wounding is great too though since with how few dice you roll every roll counts a whole lot more than in 40k. A single re-roll basically decides whether a whole unit hits or misses (I can't wait to give half of my T'au units a Marker and a Gun Drone so they can re-roll 1s for hits and for wounds lol).
 

Havocs are glass cannons, they only have 1 wound, but Chaincannons, lascannons and Missile launchers are good, no idea why you'd take Autocannons or Heavy bolters if you have a reason not to. Their big weakness is they only have 1 wound, even garisoned they die quite quickly. They are a reason I am considering dusting off my chaos Bastion and Bunkers as if they were just a little more survivable they would be nasty as all hell.


I've seen only one batrep with a heavy shooty unit like Havocs so far (actually Devastators) but the fact that they get a shot for every single heavy weapon in the unit and they can just chill back and gain +1 to-hit via the aimed fire order makes them potentially one of the most destructive units in Apocalypse from what I've seen. Such units will definitely be THE target priority for most armies so better make their first turn and maybe second turn count.

 

 

EDIT: typos


Edited by sfPanzer, 12 July 2019 - 07:19 AM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#3
Iron_Within

Iron_Within

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 957 posts
  • Location:The Charybdis Rift
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

I would say that all command assets are about as powerful as 40k strategems, but upgunned for the game scale and the duds have been streamed. There are some that I view as weak but those are the generic apoc ones rather than the faction specific ones e.g. minefield seems rubbish. However the main balancing element of them is the randomness; you cannot guarantee that you'll get that combo of cards like 40k's VotLW and Endless Cacophany, plus there are counters to some which can scupper your plans. Overall I think command assets are more balanced than strats, even if Imperial Guard can still spam the sods.

 

Yeah you hit the nail on the head with MSU, it's very easy to kill them with Ld and injuries, I personally think Terror troops with the likes of Raptors will have a good time (additional -1 on Ld) because of their massive threat range (DS and then a 24" charge move). Weaker units like Imperial Guard infantry squads just melt if they get attention their way, though the same units benefit a lot more from Garrisoning as they get -1 to hit them and their armour save goes to 6+ which is a good trade off.  

 

On the note of Havocs, my army had 5 - 2 chaincannon units with a battalion and 3 in their own detachment with Lascannons. After the first turn they did indeed get a hell of a lot of attention and got wiped off the board - by that point they'd already taken out a hell of a lot of armour.

 

The other thing that looks good on paper that is utter trash in 40k is the Vindicator. 


gallery_29004_9303_844.png

“From Iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany. And may it forever be so."

The 144th Grand Company "The Reforged" fight in the http://alephsector.blogspot.co.uk/


#4
Trevak Dal

Trevak Dal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 4,288 posts
  • Location:Tennessee
  • Faction: Black Legion (Night Blades)
So do you think that gw might experiment more with using d12s instead of d6s?

"Our Turn" - Centurion Khârn.

 


#5
Iron_Within

Iron_Within

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 957 posts
  • Location:The Charybdis Rift
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

So do you think that gw might experiment more with using d12s instead of d6s?

Maybe yeah. I think D12 actually gives a lot of flexibility.
I doubt they're ever coming to 40k, though frankly I'd much rather see alternating activation in 40k which may come (thigh that may be wishful thinking On my part)

gallery_29004_9303_844.png

“From Iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany. And may it forever be so."

The 144th Grand Company "The Reforged" fight in the http://alephsector.blogspot.co.uk/





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users