Thousand Sons: Chaos Knights Edition

[Prot]

Hey folks,

 

Chaos Knights descend upon us shortly. I wanted to start a thread that deals specifically with interesting, and useful ways of integrating our Thousand Sons / Tzeentch units with these Super Heavies.

 

For now let's assume the main force is Thousand Sons. Knights (I think) will be greatly assisted by Supreme Command Detachments of Thousand Sons, but let's first assume you are playing a Thousand Sons heavy force and you want to enhance it with Knights.

 

As of this writing I think the goto looks to be the Dual Gatling variant, or in my case I'll be doing a Gatling + RFBC. 

 

I think the reduction in RFBC points, and addition of Gatling points balances this out. The strength will be in the Infernal house ability to add to the Gatling's S/AP/D stats. 

 

Overall I think it's a solid choice because 40K feels so shooty dependent now... perhaps as much as I've ever seen competitively and it's something that Thousand Sons just really lack at over all compared to the big players. 

 

There are a lot of good choices for Knights and Thousand Sons, but focusing on Shooting first seems like a good place to start.

 

The assaulty (Gallant/Despoiler) Knights will be very popular as well, but I'm not sure that really helps the biggest issues Thousand Sons have (maybe in a multi Knight environment?)

 

So for the Thousand Sons:

 

I'm thinking for semi-competitive ideas of rolling a very, very basic Battalion of Ahriman/DP taking DeathHex for certain as I believe Knights in an army that can remove invulns is going to make some armies absolutely melt. 

 

Troops for objectives are Rubrics, and Tzaangors for blocking/advancing. The Cultists will remain cheap filler for lists that can't afford other choices.

 

For my next game I've chosen a fairly basic squad of Scarab Occult to go after an objective / help with chaff clearing duty. I know it's not optimal, just trying to stay true the background for now!

 

Also I've run Decimators for a long time with my Thousand Sons, but because I'm including a Chaos Knight I figure to get the 3 CP, I will be substituting in a few Wardogs. We'll see how they do. 

 

And finally I've saved a good chunk of points I'm not sure what to do with yet. The first idea is to simply dump them all into reserves and summon what I need... which apparently I can do with the Knight who may not move and be a good character to do this with? 

 

I'm thinking a Squad of flamers for clearing chaff on arrival, or perhaps even a flyer? Perhaps screens of Brimstones? Perhaps another Battalion of Tzeentch daemons is worth investigating? What do you think?

 

[Tyriks]

Not gonna lie, I assumed from the title you had converted and painted a TS Knight and was very excited to see it.

[WarriorFish]

I didn't think that... but now I want to see it too

 

I'm not up on the detailed Chaos Knight happenings, but Sons are going to benefit a lot from bringing one along. Not that anyone wouldn't, but if you go all in on shooty that's going to add a lot more relatively speaking for Sons who are light on the long range and big guns. On a big tough platform what's not to like? Knights are pretty much all what a Sons force can't or struggle to add to the table top, that's going to be quite appealing.

 

Of course Knights look great too which is enough argument - better still to have a Thousand Sons looking Knight

[BoomWolf]

Well, personally with the price tweaks, I think the thermal just might pull up above the gataling, especially for our sons.

After all, its just as effective against T6 (in final results, not counting costs), better against higher T values. thermal knights are only really bad against horde-but the sons are pretty darn good at taking down hordes to begin with, and you still have stomps.

 

And with the double-thermal dropping 42 points while the dual-gata going 20 up, its 66 point increase in the already existing gap.

A double thermal is under 400 now.

A double gata is now 497 points.

That's EXACTLY 100 point difference that's 25% of the gata build. a 2000 point list can run 4 gata knights, or 5 thermal knights.

A thermal knight is, by comparison, a hell lot tougher than a gata knight. and in 40k where "one is none, two is one, three is some"-

Don't know about you, but I can think of few scenarios I'll rather have 4 gata knights over 5 thermal knights.

 

 

A counterargument again the thermal knights though, is just how good are the melee tricks in the codex. not having any of them feels so wasteful. not taking at least a sword, or a fist, or outright the relic version (relic sword is superior though, except it can't use the grip strat.) is so sad.

And then you got the built-in hybrid desecrator that leads his pack of murder puppies-but for him you honestly want the relic gun upgrade to make him as good as a melta cannon at 60" range, but then you get it at 60" so why are you hybriding?

 

 

In any case, the biggest issue will always be your choice of relics, because for the love of god I want about 5 of them at any given moment.

[Tyriks]

I also haven't kept up too much (I know I'm gonna buy them eventually, no need to trick myself into doing it ahead of schedule!) but I'm excited. What I have seen is all good. Maybe too good, but we will see.

 

I think the things I struggle with most with TS is number of bodies, cc with real punch and anti-armor. Knights don't help the first one but definitely can help the latter two!

 

I expect we will see some variation of the Imperial soup list see some play soon, and I expect it'll be something like Knights, Red Corsair Battalion, and then another detachment that will differ list to list. A Supreme Command of TS would have some punch and could be an option there.

 

All of that said, even if they're unplayable bad, I'll buy one or more. Knight models are amazing and I truly love the Chaos design. I've been very slowly making a Chaosy Valiant so maybe this will inspire me to actually get something done on it soon.

[Heliomanes]

Having played both Imperial Knights and Thousand Sons, I must say that Ksons really fill out Knights well. The synergy with Death Hex is obvious, same with the incredible mobility of Tzaangor squads thanks to warp time, the DS stratagem and the crystal relic. Really looking forward to seeing what kind of lists people come up with.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Heliomanes

[Angel of Solitude]

I've been looking forward to Chaos Knights ever since they've been announced. In my mind the role that I've always anticipated Knights to play is anti-armour, something which I have always struggled with 1kSons and Tzeentch Daemons.

 

Currently I'm looking at a Despoiler with twin rapid-fire battlecannons, and the relic that ignores any negative hit modifiers. I may also run some War Dogs along side, but it depends when I need in my Tzeentch and 1kSons battalions. That should put out a lot of S7/S8 firepower, and with 3 heavy stubbers you also have the stratagem to make them S5 instead of S4.

 

We'll see how it goes...I may try a more melee-based Knight some time later, but for now, it's plenty of Dakka!

[Questor Traitoris]

When comes to synergies with the Death Hex I think that the best application is that of an Infernal Household, Knight Despoiler with 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon and with the Helm relic. 

 

I am also considering a 2x thermal cannon unit for top notch anti armor problem solving. 

[Heliomanes]

If you run a single knight, I think Iconoclasts are stronger than Infernal Houses. You only get the house bonus in lists of 3 or more knights, and the Vow stratagems that are Iconoclast only are incredibly strong. +1 attack for every 10 kills on a double gatling knight is nuts. And that's in addition to whatever you can fit in relics, warlord traits and the dreadblade bonuses. We'll have plenty of fun builds to play with.

[Prot]

It's still early, I'm in the experimental stages. I'm not sure of what colour scheme I will use. or if I will use my Knights more with Black Legion or Thousand Sons.

 

That said I did do up a batrep based on another experimental game where I use my Tyrant/Valiant. (This game was also the day before the codex was released.)

 

https://prot40k.blog/2019/07/15/prots-quickie-batrep-chaos-knights-and-thousand-sons-vs-orks/

 

The short version was I felt the Thousand Sons get a much needed boost from this. Maybe more than most chaos will need. I, personally, am sick of reaching to Forgeworld Decimators/Contemptors/Doritos/etc, etc. So this was a welcome break.

 

I know the Tyrant will see just about zero competitive play but even though I play fairly strong competition, I want to have some fun so I'm going to work on him. :)

[Zodd1888]

I think those new Armiger Moirax may be an excellent option as allies. Those Lightening Locks are pretty incredible, and taking a pair of those with something bigger could play hard.

[Prot]

I have been playing a very similar Knight set up with both my Thousand Sons and my Black Legion. It’s not that I’m greatly attached to my particular Knight but instead I’m trying to really tell which army I like better with the Knights.

 

So far I think the Thousand Sons benefit more. They love the extra shooting support.

 

Competitively I have to believe there is only one situation I find the Thousand Sons are truly better and its in a niche matchup.... whenever an 18” removal of an invulnerable save is paramount.

 

The Black Legion wins I’ve had have been monstrous on some occasions where the Thousand Sons have enjoyed convincing wins it’s not to the same degree.

 

Thousand sons get to be a little funner with the Knights. There’s no need for Magnus, and you can spend the additional points on funner support choices

[Zodd1888]

I have been playing a very similar Knight set up with both my Thousand Sons and my Black Legion. It’s not that I’m greatly attached to my particular Knight but instead I’m trying to really tell which army I like better with the Knights.

 

So far I think the Thousand Sons benefit more. They love the extra shooting support.

 

Competitively I have to believe there is only one situation I find the Thousand Sons are truly better and its in a niche matchup.... whenever an 18” removal of an invulnerable save is paramount.

 

The Black Legion wins I’ve had have been monstrous on some occasions where the Thousand Sons have enjoyed convincing wins it’s not to the same degree.

 

Thousand sons get to be a little funner with the Knights. There’s no need for Magnus, and you can spend the additional points on funner support choices

That's my problem actually. I love Magnus but he's just not worth the points when you compare him to what you can get. Mortarion is better in Melee, a +2 on a damage table isn't far off from a +1 (or +2 on first spell and +1 on the rest).

 

I'm very much looking at goats, automata, a shaman, a knight, and two of the new armigers. I think that list has got some good legs.

[Aothaine]

I have been playing a very similar Knight set up with both my Thousand Sons and my Black Legion. It’s not that I’m greatly attached to my particular Knight but instead I’m trying to really tell which army I like better with the Knights.

 

So far I think the Thousand Sons benefit more. They love the extra shooting support.

 

Competitively I have to believe there is only one situation I find the Thousand Sons are truly better and its in a niche matchup.... whenever an 18” removal of an invulnerable save is paramount.

 

The Black Legion wins I’ve had have been monstrous on some occasions where the Thousand Sons have enjoyed convincing wins it’s not to the same degree.

 

Thousand sons get to be a little funner with the Knights. There’s no need for Magnus, and you can spend the additional points on funner support choices

 

I'm working on building up my Chaos Forces and I was curious if you could share any of your Black Legion + Chaos Knights lists. Also, what do you think made the Black Legion work better with Chaos Knights? Really curious as I'm currently planning on investing around $3,000 in my Knights alone. Working on getting three dual Gatling Cannon setups with a close combat and anti-tank setup as additional options with the arm and addon swaps.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Raven1]

I played my first game today with my new knights. My list was thus

 

Changecaster

Changeling

2 x10 Brimestone Horrors

1 x25 Pink Horros (reserve 10 points for 2x blue)

 

Ahriman on disk

Daemon prince with wings

Helforged Contemptor w/ dual c-beam cannons

Cultists

Tzaangors

Tzaangors

 

Knight despoiler with veil of medrengard

AGC with the chainsword

Wardog with thermal spear and chainsword

 

 

First time with the contemptor too, it was worth its weight against hordes and armored targets

 

The Despoiler was done Turn 2, very sad but the way I deployed he was the only visible target for his first 2 shooting phases. The AGC was great wiped a cultist squad.

 

The Wardogs were good as well. Not only did I get the iconoclast benefit but they drew fire well and were tough enough to take a couple rounds of it. I want the dual Lighting locks from Forgeword but they are sold out.

 

They can definitely give a good counter to the high toughness/vehicle monstrous creature I think we have trouble with.

 

I lost by 1 point, failed a key charge and forgot a couple movements in my first 2 turns otherwise i think i would have pulled it out.