DA 8.5 Codex wishlisting

[shabbadoo]

Speed of the raven: for 3 CP it could cover all ravenwing units? OP? As of now sotr doesn't really help if you have many high priority ravenwing units.

Definitely overpowered, unless it was ONE USE ONLY.

In my taste Black Knights plasma talons have too short range to be useful, effective range 38" isn't that good considering what you want to aim at is either a knight (effective range 48" to delete your BK's) or most tanks/vehicles that sit far back in the battlefield.

I have no problem with the range, as I believe that any vehicle armed with a long range gun should actually have at least the possibility of getting ONE chance to pop an enemy unit before being DP'd by a unit that is not similar, and at 36" effective range, followed by an Assault of another 2d6 inches on that same target mind you (or whatever else you wish that might be in range). That somehow sucks? Please...

 

Overall I like the ideas that I'm hearing but I wonder if we're overcooking the ravenwing stew here. I suggest we break it down to keep it simple.

 

Problem 1: Ravenwing rules should better reflect their fluff.

To a degree.

Problem 2: RWBK do far too little for their points costs and lack a defined role.

Utterly untrue. RWBKs are a Close Assault unit, meaning a [highly in this case] mobile unit that gets up close, shoots one in the face with some sort of %$#%@! up weapon, and then bashes one's head in with something that isn't Str 4, AP -, D 1. RWBKs do all of that. Seeing as no other RW non-character unit can do this, yes, I do think they have a quite obviously defined role. Sorry they aren't armed so as to be able to efficiently violate every type of unit in the game, but then no unit is really supposed to be that way, is it (rather large shooty/choppy units being the sole exceptions, like Knight class and bigger units).

Problem 3: Ravenwing heavy weapons units and LSV suffer massively from heavy weapons penalties.

When moving, yes, but then that's what you really want to be doing with them, so this is an obvious problem that could be mitigated rules-wise to some degree.

Solution 1: Since the RW are supposed to be one of the foremost rapid attack companies in the imperium, on top of being astartes, detachments which all units share the "ravenwing" keyword replace grim resolve with "relentless pursuit" (or something to that effect) in which RW units ignore the penalties for advancing and shooting assault weapons. Additionally, all weapons besides grenades become assault weapons when this unit advances.

That might be a bit much. It would be sufficient say that RW count all weapons as Assault weapons when they Advance. Extra speed, at the cost of being -1 to hit, but with the ability to shoot EVERYTHING, would be decent (especially if it were to integrate with Grim Resolve in a synergistic manner), but not verging into the realm of Limburger beardiness.

Rw's own "chapter tactic", this distinguishes them from the rest of the wings and rewards building forces around the idea that the RW are semi independent secretive hunters pursuing an agenda separate from the main DA body. It's not perfect, because I turned Talonmasters into character shreading monsters with huntsman wl trait, but is that really a bad thing? Hah. Also leaves jink in it's current state.

This is problematic because it would leave Dark Angels as the *ONLY* Chapter with multiple Chapter Tactics, which would be, to put it bluntly (and speaking on behalf of EVERY other Chapter), a load of crap. Becoming Ravenwing doesn't "Un-Dark Angel" a Dark Angel. The key is to work within the confines of a single Chapter Tactic, not toss it out the window simply because it is convenient to do so. Ravenwing training apparently is about becoming "more dodgy," and perhaps better mobile shooters, so it behooves us to make Grim Resolve work in a manner suitable to the Ravenwing, and make Jink usable in a way that doesn't render [usually] outnumbered Ravenwing forces non-offensive in any meaningful way. The problem with Ravenwing is that use of their special rules rob them of the mobility they pay for or outright removes the offensive capability they pay for. This is, of course, idiotic and should be addressed in an appropriately Dark Angels fluffy manner.

Solution 2: reworked RWBK with the following, plasma talon is RF2 24", corvus hammer is +1 S -2 AP 1D and unmodified 6's to wound deal d3 MW in addition. Each BK has 3 attacks and hunt master with 4. Outflank (1/3) is a pregame cp strat to put 1-2 RW units in reserve to come in with the normal flanking restrictions.

Plasma talons are fine as is, and this change, along with your other proposed rules, would I believe give RWBKs an effective range of "We bypassed the battle entirely and shot Abaddon inside the Eye of Terror," and so might not be very...judicious. As to the corvus hammer roll of a 6 causing not D3 wounds but D3 *MORTAL* wounds, no common weapon should have even a 1-in-6 chance of being beyond overly good (I'm afraid to even ask you what you think a Heavenfall Blade should do). Even the AP -2 is too much, as then the corvus hammer would be a power axe+.  You can have all of that, but are you really willing to pay 60-ish points for one RWBK? Probably not. As to the Stratagem, that would be GREAT, but it should exist as a common stratagem usable by any army's Fast Attack units, not just RW.

There ya go, bang for your buck. This gives them the threat profile to reach out and touch units at 44 inches to be both a shooting threat and a melee threat, buffed with righteous repugnance and cause all the feel bads. "But that would be OP!" For a unit that costs just shy of 200 points for a 5 man squad you better believe they should bring the pain.

And there it is: less than 40 points for this sort of RWBK. Those are RED lenses in our helmets, not rose-tinted lenses.

Solution 3: while the heavy weapons penalties were covered in solution 1 the LSV would do well to get changed to 4d3 shots with MWs to the model for unmodified ones on overcharge

That is about right. This and many other heavy weapons really need to use the multiple D3 format more.

Edited July 31, 2019 by shabbadoo

[G8Keeper]

The only issue I have with 4d3 is you double the potential to roll 1's when overcharging. 

[Neuralshock]

 

 

Problem 3: Ravenwing heavy weapons units and LSV suffer massively from heavy weapons penalties.

When moving, yes, but then that's what you really want to be doing with them, so this is an obvious problem that could be mitigated rules-wise to some degree.

 

That might be a bit much. It would be sufficient say that RW count all weapons as Assault weapons when they Advance. Extra speed, at the cost of being -1 to hit, but with the ability to shoot EVERYTHING, would be decent (especially if it were to integrate with Grim Resolve in a synergistic manner), but not verging into the realm of Limburger beardiness.

 

This would be a valid criticism if there wasn't already precedent for the kinds of rules I put forth which can be found all over 8th edition. House raven, Battle focus rule, Viorla sept, Metallica just to name a few.

 

 

This is problematic because it would leave Dark Angels as the *ONLY* Chapter with multiple Chapter Tactics, which would be, to put it bluntly (and speaking on behalf of EVERY other Chapter), a load of crap. Becoming Ravenwing doesn't "Un-Dark Angel" a Dark Angel. The key is to work within the confines of a single Chapter Tactic, not toss it out the window simply because it is convenient to do so.

 

I disagree about it being problematic because the dark angels are in fluff and crunch NOT codex SM and fight in their own distinct style. The 2nd company of the dark angels presents nothing like "codex compliant" chapters and have a completely different doctrine of warfare compared to the rest of the main DA forces. Members selected for the ravenwing are chosen because they are different from battleline squads of DA.

 

In fact the first line in bold under "ravenwing squads" say that the 2nd company is "entirely dedicated to vehicular, mobile warfare" does this sound anything like Grim Resolve? No, they focus on fast, hard hitting blitzkrieg attacks to strike as the vanguard for the ahead of the DA forces. (and hunt the fallen, yada yada)

 

So rather than trying to fit the square "Grim Resolve" peg into the round Ravenwing hole, replacing GR with a doctrine that's RW focused is the simplified answer. This entices players to invest in pure RW outrider detachments as opposed to the ubiquitous 2x battalion without needing to change too much in the ways of the main DA rules.

 

 

 

Solution 2:

Plasma talons are fine as is, and this change, along with your other proposed rules, would I believe give RWBKs an effective range of "We bypassed the battle entirely and shot Abaddon inside the Eye of Terror,"

44 inches is definitely not shooting the board unless you only play DoW set up. But I can also see scaling it back to 18'' RF

 

 As to the corvus hammer roll of a 6 causing not D3 wounds but D3 *MORTAL* wounds, no common weapon should have even a 1-in-6 chance of being beyond overly good 

Probably, doing multi d3 MW wounds would be pretty crazy. in retrospect a change to d3 D or flat 2 would be preferable

 

Even the AP -2 is too much, as then the corvus hammer would be a power axe+. 

I disagree, for an elite unit with low volume of attacks, AP-1 does very little to punch through melee equivalent elite units like bullgryn or BLT's where either will wipe a squad of BK's without breaking a sweat. Additionally, the points cost of a black knight can be broken down into ~around~ its equivalent parts (Biker:23 + Plasma gun 11+ power axe eqv 5)= 39 where the corvus hammer is strictly inferior to a power axe.

 

 Those are RED lenses in our helmets, not rose-tinted lenses.

Rude, this is a wishlisting thread where we talk about ideas we'd like to see, what did you expect?

Edited August 1, 2019 by Neuralshock

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'd be content with a 20% points price drop across the board and Lion El'Jonson. Jink becoming a -1 to hit that becomes a -2 when advancing and stacks with the Dark Shroud would be nice too.

[shabbadoo]

 

....

Read post #30 in this thread and you will have context for my comments; especially regarding Chapter Tactics and how to deal with it in regard to the Ravenwing.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

....

 

Read post #30 in this thread and you will have context for my comments; especially regarding Chapter Tactics and how to deal with it in regard to the Ravenwing.

I think both of you have some major flaws with you Ravenwing suggestions.

 

First off you can't have a rule with the same name as a keyword. Hence the reason why the DW rule from previous editions was changed to Inner Circle. Even though it is clear from the fluff that Inner Circle is limited to just the highest ranks of the DW. So come up with a name for the rule.

 

Second stop trying to describe your whatever RW rule as a unique chapter tactic for RW. Even if your idea is good, trying to sell it as a chapter tactic will guarantee that the idea is rejected. Keep your description of these rules to only affecting certain data cards, not as an overarching rule for Ravenwing.

 

Third have different rules give different effects. Stop trying to get multiple rules stacking additional -1 to be hit.

 

Forth it is going to be an impossible sell to convince GW to make a mountain of changes. Instead focus on individual rules and suggest the smallest possible changes keeping the structure of the rule in place.

 

So take Jink for example, when unit advances, unit gets invulnerable save. One qualifier and one effect. Not multiple qualifiers and multiple effects. Keeping the form of the rule would give you something like this.

 

JINK - When unit moves, unit is -1 to be hit.

 

And following my own rule 3, make this change.

Icon of Old Caliban - units within 6 inches have a 5++

 

As far as Grim Resolve is concerned it doesn't matter that the unit wants to move. All the jump pack units in DA still have Grim Resolve, and they get to use it when they stop moving.

 

Or it is like Sammael and Inner Circle, he will never get to use the re-roll 1s to hit vs the Fallen because he always re-rolls all hits against all targets. In fact all Masters won't get to use that part of the Inner Circle rule because of their other rules.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Brothers, let's keep in mind this is a wish list thread so take everything with a grain of salt. We won't sell our ideas here to GW and most likely GW won't even notice this thread.

So keep the thread nice and cooperative, discuss ideas, be critical but not too critical. Have fun, above all.

[ValourousHeart]

Brothers, let's keep in mind this is a wish list thread so take everything with a grain of salt. We won't sell our ideas here to GW and most likely GW won't even notice this thread.

So keep the thread nice and cooperative, discuss ideas, be critical but not too critical. Have fun, above all.

 

Not to be rude, but if the point isn't to affect change, then this thread is a complete waste of everyone's time.

 

We got GW to listen to us before, and they seem to be more open to that today then they were back then.  So why wouldn't we want to make a short list of changes to bombard GW with in an effort to make our codex just a little bit better?

 

We could craft an email with the consensus changes we would like to see and have all members of this forum send it in to GW's FAQ email.  If GW gets several thousand emails all asking for the same changes they might get the hint that we want to see these changes made.

 

Why should only Adeptacon attendees get a voice in the conversation about the direction of this hobby?

[Pvnisher]

I want for us not to be able to use primaris. Rip old marines.

[ValourousHeart]

Well to each his own.  

 

I'm loving this new scout "not" dreadnought.  Hopefully it can keep up with my Ravenwing.

[Brother Ramael]

The issue I take is that, while I love Primaris Marines and I am happy with the direction GW is going, our special assets ( RW and DW) rely totally on Firstborn equipement without anything in the Primaris line to hook to.

As Kenzaburo correctly said in the main thread about the news this is just a stepping stone to get a full Primaris Codex and what shape the DW and the RW will then have is unknown.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Brother Ramael

[JJD]

The imminent release of the White Scars supplement may give us some insight into what GW plan to do with space-marine bikes and speeders.

 

It will be interesting to see if they chose white Scars as a way to introduce primaris bikes and speeders or as a way to present squat marine bikes and speeders as still viable.

 

Only a week to wait and see I guess.

[Hantheman]

The +1 attack on the charge is not that great for us, but I think still good.

 

Ravenwing bikes again get better, all the shooting and can charge in and clear out more chaff, or give the sarg a thunder hammer and it's 3 TH attacks now. Basically a custodes :D

[Brother Ramael]

The +1 attack on the charge is not that great for us, but I think still good.

 

Ravenwing bikes again get better, all the shooting and can charge in and clear out more chaff, or give the sarg a thunder hammer and it's 3 TH attacks now. Basically a custodes

Well, the +1 is good when charged as well and that's more useful.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Shock Assault is a pretty solid buff for Ravenwing. There's almost no reason not to give chainswords to members of a Bike Squadron, and that gives them 3 attacks on the charge. Helps Black Knights too. I've been missing the days when BKs were a terror in assault. I'm not sure this gets them all the way there, but it does lift them out of mediocrity.

Deathwing could pretty easily be represented by Gravis armored units. That seems like there's the potential for a straight portal over. As for Ravenwing, we haven't yet seen anything like a Primaris Bike or Speeder, but the teasing of White Scars rules does suggest they're coming.

[HandsWithLegs]

If we get a new codex I would love to see

 

1. The lion. We all know he's probably going to be the next primarch, and it's about time we got another loyalist. 

 

2. A lieutenant for deathwing. Ravenwing got one and he's awesome. Would be really cool to see something unique for the terminators too. They could even work as a way to get the next thing on my wishlist...

 

3. A way to get charge bonuses. One of the biggest problems I have with deathwing is the 9" charge just isn't reliable. So many other armies have ways to make that distance more manageable and I want that.

 

4. As others have said, deathwing as a whole needs work

 

5. new stratigems, warlord traits and powers. We have so few good ones, 

 

6. A reworked chapter tactic. Ours is nice, but so situational and weak when compared to others and. A few tweaks would be nice

 

7. An inner circle rework. Super situational and not all that useful. 

[Hantheman]

Seeing these new litanies of battle as likely chaplain powers I'd love to see our interrogator chaps get something special beyond -1 leadership

 

Although saying all this I do not see Dark Angels getting a new supplement with the new space marine codex. In fact I can see us going down the Space Marine power levels.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Hantheman

[Neuralshock]

So now that the previews have been out for the codex boys, time to theory craft what neat new things might be coming our way in the coming months (or next year, probably)

 

My two cents,

 

1. Enhanced Grim resolve, we'll keep the reroll ones, maybe adding ignore negative modifiers or overwatch on 5+6's?

 

2. Ravenwing and deathwing supplements, with these you can fully leverage the might of our 1st and 2nd companies with specific relics, WL traits, and dank strats

 

3. Interromancy overhaul with a rebalancing of our powers so it's not always aversion/RR.

 

4. Combat doctrines to buff the three elements of our army. Maybe one of them being reroll charge dice for deathwing?

 

Either way, looks like we're playing the waiting game... Again

[Interrogator Stobz]

I think bikers will be replaced with Primaris chunky repulsor type bikes and TDA will also get Pms'd with at least two arm weapons and compulsory torso weapons to guard against counts as for current TDA.

The biker kit is very old, as is Indomiatus TDA; in 6 months when our next dex drops GW will be ready for another Pms wave, calling it now.

[Guest Metaliptica]

Well I've been thinking about our next codex and something I would like to see happening is the return of our brilliant overwatch instead of rerolls. Also, instead of loosing 1 model max due to morale, how about our Ld cannot be modified by fear/dread auras ?
Maybe implement a few stratagems that focus on the interractions between the wings (like deathwing can teleport 6" from ravenwing but must stay 3" away from enemy units
 

It is rather sad that we won't have access to the doctrines, but I believe we will get somethig similar with our codex. Something like "the tenets of the Lion" would make sense and instead of moving from Dev to tactical to assault doctrines, we get something that improve greenwing, then ravenwing, then deathwing ? or maybe instead of moving from one bonus to an other, give us conditions like to gain the improved AP, ravenwing must advance / Deathwing must be within 12" of an ennemy character... These are the kind of ideas I would like to see implemented in our codex.

Then there is obviously the Lion that I'm sure we all want to see waking up and slap some heretics. Make him a hunter and duelist and that would make me a happy Dark Angel.
Regarding the primaris wave, I have no ideas what GW has in store for us, but I would like to see one primaris unit for each of our wings. (please give me primaris knights !)

[Berzul]

It's all just speculation, at this point.

 

That said, I do expect every codex (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) get equivalents to the new rules, as well as Primaris replacements for our unique units. Maybe new units in the new primaris style, to add some more variety to the DW and RW, such as new forms of Dreadnoughts for the 1st Company, and new forms of Speeders for the 2nd Company.

 

Doctrines, adapted to work as synergy between the wings, could actually be pretty cool, too.

[FlamingDeth]

The ability to make successors even half as well as the regular codex. I'd make due with just being able to make a chapter master, RAW we can't even counts-as Azrael, not that anyone pays attention to that rule.

[Berzul]

Every time I have played or seen someone play successors, its always been simply by saying:

Rules-wise, these guys are just Dark Angels, and this guy is Azrael.Lore wise, they are my own custom chapter.

Seriously, i have never seen someone actually follow the rules in the book for successors.

[Triszin]

so as a wolf, and an outsider to the angels.

 

Would you guys want a "fallen" supplement rolled into your primary book?

 

Also:

 

It would be neat to see a rule that allows terminators as troops for you guys.

[FlamingDeth]

Terminators don't need to be troops, FOC slots aren't as meaningful as they used to be. We used to be able to take them as troops but with the current detachments force org shenanigans are meaningless. As long as they can get more CP they'll be able to manage. Well, as well as something so redonk expensive can manage.

 

Also, absolutely not to fallen, we already get too much "lol DA traitor legion" comments from amateur comedians.

Edited August 9, 2019 by FlamingDeth