Bad and Good Deaths in the HH Series

[b1soul]

@ mc warhammer

 

Jubal's introduction in Path of Heaven sets his character up quite nicely and contrasts him with Qin Xa. He seems to represent the legion's future after Xa and Yesugei bite the dust, and becomes the first Master of the Hunt in the same book. I guess in Solar War, he's an intentional exercise in unfulfilled expectations.

[mc warhammer]

@ mc warhammer

 

Jubal's introduction in Path of Heaven sets his character up quite nicely and contrasts him with Qin Xa. He seems to represent the legion's future after Xa and Yesugei bite the dust, and becomes the first Master of the Hunt in the same book. I guess in Solar War, he's an intentional exercise in unfulfilled expectations.

 

huh, i legit don't remember much about him in the book besides becoming the first master of the hunt.

 

still, would've been nice to had him master hunting throughout a bit more of the siege

[Kelborn]

Oh, he does hunt. We got him hunting with his fleets.

 

Yeah, expectations might not been met but keep in mind that they can't afford x amount of characters covered in the siege and still being alive afterwards. There are still plenty of characters to focus in and who still have to show up.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Jubal was a well-developed supporting character (for all that he's a leading figure in the Legion), for my money.

what i've read of jubal so far (the short with sig and his appearance in the primarch book) has been...more or less...that he's a very good fighter. i would be hard pressed to write more about him. def not as much about him as say qruze or archamus or severian.

 

does the seige book flesh him out significantly before it red vipers him?

Just a little, but my point was more that through the Scars' Heresy arc, he wasn't meant to carry the story to the degree that Ilya, Shiban and the Khan himself do. He was in a fair few chapters, but he didn't get an arc like Shiban, for example, nor did we spend anything like as much time in his head.

 

Also, can we please note that Jubal

Catches Abaddon off-guard, has him hard-pressed in the melee and then nearly posthumously kills him with a Caestus magma-melta? Abaddon is only saved by Layak.

 

Thus Jubal dies as he lived: being cool and serving as a foil to one of the settings' Big Beasts, even as he bloodies his nose.

Edited July 15, 2019 by bluntblade

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Jubal was a well-developed supporting character (for all that he's a leading figure in the Legion), for my money.

what i've read of jubal so far (the short with sig and his appearance in the primarch book) has been...more or less...that he's a very good fighter. i would be hard pressed to write more about him. def not as much about him as say qruze or archamus or severian.

 

does the seige book flesh him out significantly before it red vipers him?

Just a little, but my point was more that through the Scars' Heresy arc, he wasn't meant to carry the story to the degree that Ilya, Shiban and the Khan himself do.

 

 

completely understand that, it is what it is. i won't go so far as to call the death bad, but just noting my wish to have seen more from the character.

[Angel_of_Blood]

As I've posted in any thread where this is relevant.

 

Torghun Khan. Still the best death by far for me in the whole series. I mean there's plenty of great ones. But his still shines above them all for me.

I’d argue Abaddon hasn’t really been shown as a dangerous fighter (or as much of anything at all) in the Horus Heresy series itself.

 

Yeah, I mean we're constantly told how dangerous he is by others or by reputation. But aside from one fight with Loken, we've had nothing to really prove that. Nor as you've said anything else spectacular, other than that he can be really angry and has a short fuse.

[bluntblade]

Solar War provides on that front, but it's a damning thing that it's taken this long for him to receive that treatment.

 

Abnett did some good things with Abaddon, but they were all rather low key and easily obscured by McNeil and Counter's broad strokes.

 

He could really have done with his own novella to go with Templar. Heck, I have a dream outline of that already - interactions with Demeter or Kaesoron, Santar, Sevatar, perhaps a Wolf too.

Edited July 15, 2019 by bluntblade

[Angel_of_Blood]

Exactly. He needed some actual spotlight, such as novella as you said. Just anything. Of all the characters in the series, I've found Abaddon probably one of the most disappointing. Horus Rising was a great start, as we saw the choleric yes, but otherwise quite affable Abaddon, which was tragic knowing what we know. But from then on he's just been lacking massively, up until the Siege series, where he is finally being given the spotlight.

[Kelborn]

But, did he really need more spotlight?

 

Don't get me wrong, he should be among the most important characters BUT we got him depicted in 40K, as well as a certain dedicated series, which characterizes him very well.

 

HH was partially meant to give some background for some iconic ones but overall (imho) was it meant to expand upon the lore lore, to let some "side-characters" shine, to implement new stuff (hate it or love it but the overall idea of adding something like the Imperium Secundus was great) and new characters, etc.

 

Yes, Abaddon didn't had that much of attention. Is that something I'm disappointed about? Surely not. I'm ok with him stepping up during the Siege. It's a great way of presenting him before the fall and after Horus' death, his "dream" shattered and so on.

[bluntblade]

Well, if Abaddon had been well-represented all the way through, we wouldn't need more. As things turned out, though, a lot of his appearances created or fed into a perception which wants correcting, if Abaddon is to make sense.

 

Call it Eidolon's Problem.

[Fire Golem]

But, did he really need more spotlight?

 

Don't get me wrong, he should be among the most important characters BUT we got him depicted in 40K, as well as a certain dedicated series, which characterizes him very well.

 

HH was partially meant to give some background for some iconic ones but overall (imho) was it meant to expand upon the lore lore, to let some "side-characters" shine, to implement new stuff (hate it or love it but the overall idea of adding something like the Imperium Secundus was great) and new characters, etc.

 

Yes, Abaddon didn't had that much of attention. Is that something I'm disappointed about? Surely not. I'm ok with him stepping up during the Siege. It's a great way of presenting him before the fall and after Horus' death, his "dream" shattered and so on.

I don’t buy into the idea that Abaddon didn’t need to be well represented in the Heresy because he’s well represented in a different, separate series. Had he just been a line captain or something in the Heresy, sure, but he was always said to be more than he was ever shown to be, which was the issue.

[bluntblade]

Abaddon was always First Captain of the Sons of Horus, though. I mean, it may have been a neat subversion for that to have been misremembered and him just a line captain, were it not that the Black Legion series shows that he was renowned, a "battle-king" among the Traitors. 

 

It's difficult to point to other characters for a comparison, as apart from Eidolon, few of them have made the jump from supporting player to lead.

[Kelborn]

Please don't get me wrong, I'd love to have some decent stuff of him.

I'm just saying that it's ok for me (and that's why I said imho) that they "started" to do so in the Siege and that they've focused on other parts of the Heresy.

 

But I digress. Back to the unfortunate and fallen heroes and villains of the Heresy.

[Fire Golem]

Abaddon was always First Captain of the Sons of Horus, though. I mean, it may have been a neat subversion for that to have been misremembered and him just a line captain, were it not that the Black Legion series shows that he was renowned, a "battle-king" among the Traitors. 

 

It's difficult to point to other characters for a comparison, as apart from Eidolon, few of them have made the jump from supporting player to lead.

I didn’t mean they should have changed his role. I just meant i’d agree more with the idea that he didn’t need to be shown in a better light in the Heresy series because he’s well developed in his own series, if he’d had a lesser role in the Heresy.

[bluntblade]

To be honest, I don't think you could have avoided it without it coming off rather weird. For the First Captain of the Sons of Horus to not have a key role in the later Heresy would be... wrong, really.

[Roomsky]

On the subject of the Sons of Horus, if speculation for future death is acceptable I really hope Tybalt Marr and Aximand both get their comeuppance in the siege. 

 

I know a lot of people have an Aximand and Loken showdown on their wishlists, but a final death for Tormageddon strikes as more Loken's bag. I wouldn't mind Aximand getting a round 2 with Sigismund, or maybe the classic "villain-escapes-near-death-only-to-stumble-into-something-worse," weaseling out of one showdown only to to run face-first into Siggy.

 

I have no qualms about the anti-climax Marr handed to Meduson, but I also think it would be fitting if something similarly sobering happened to him. Imagine him strutting through the fray, cutting down loyalists right and left, head in the clouds because it was he who killed Shadrak Meduson. Then a stray ricochet hits him in the temple or something. A fitting end, I think.

[b1soul]

Yes, maybe I shouldn't call Jubal's death bad. It's written well enough and isn't out of character or silly. I simply expected more to be done with him...by Wraight in particular. It's a creative choice by French and perhaps even by Wraight as well, just not one I'd have made myself.

[bluntblade]

I would also put Sedirae down as a weak death - not one of the most egregious, but still a poor decision. Partly because that author forgot that the very first thing we were told about Sedirae was... wait for it... that he was emphatically not a Son of Horus in the old sense and therefore doesn't make sense as a double. Sedirae seemed like the perfect example of how the XVI carried the old ganger legacy, quite openly, and how that would twist into something just as dark as it had been on Cthonia and then darker. Killing him off contributed to how we didn't really see it again until Ekaddon and Argonis stepped up.

 

And on the good side, Khorak the ex-Deathshroud Terminator's death is wonderfully bleak. 

[b1soul]

"he was emphatically not a Son of Horus in the old sense and therefore doesn't make sense as a double"

 

What do you mean?

[bluntblade]

Sedirae dies because he's been stuck in Horus' armour as a body double. Which is a stupid idea when you've got plenty of rank and file who really resemble the Primarch (the old meaning of Sons of Horus) who you could use instead of a senior captain (he was considered for the Mournival, and his military glories seem to have been slightly ahead of Loken's) who doesn't look that much like him.

[DarkChaplain]

It is heavily implied in Nemesis that it wasn't simply that Horus wanted a double, but that Horus used the opportunity to get rid of a potentially difficult player in his own Legion, who was trying to barter for more power and kept challenging him in certain ways, and he was damn full of himself. It was more of a targeted purge by way of loyalist assassins than a job offer filled by just some rando.

[bluntblade]

Ah, then I stand corrected.

[b1soul]

Oh you mean he wasn't a true Son of Horus like Little Horus (before Hibou sliced his face).

 

However,wouldn't it still be obvious to an intelligent assassin that a true Son of Horus' face/head is much smaller than Horus'. Primaries are huge, it makes more sense for doubles to be completely helmed and armoured.

[Wulfburk]

Best death imo was Yesugei. 

 

Really liked also how Tarvitz, Amandus Tyr (in phall) and Dantioch deaths went. Also enjoyed all the main deaths in the Solar War and Praetorian of Dorn, Archamus, Alpharius, Jubal, Mersadie Oilton and Boreas, in the way they were written and their impact on other characters. Also really liked how the main character, the astropath, dies in Outcast Dead. 

 

 

For main characters, i dont really think any died in a bad way, cutting short their potential. Only gripe i have is that i hated how the custodies were killed with no effort in The First Heretic. Not that they should've lived, but they should've gone down with some small victories . IMO Argel Tal, the heresy's most boring protagonist (in my opinion ) should've died there and then to them, and amidst all the traitor no set back triumphs that continues onto betrayer, it woud'lve actually been satisfying for me. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Wulfburk

[DarkChaplain]

The double / Sedirae was wearing a helmet along with Horus' signature cloak etc. Even the other Astartes from Sedirae's own company were not aware of the situation, and it took them examining the body (head blown off iirc) to figure it out.