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Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion


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1205 replies to this topic

#76
Dracos

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It's not really the equivalent. It's similarly durable on the board and gives off a similar presence (bulky Marine infantry), but they aren't Veterans or anything and can't deep strike by default like Terminators can do.


Although I’d like to see it as a built in feature, I defintiely think a proper stratagem could cover the lack of a deep strike ability. As far as Veterans they could even be added in the same way as Veteran Intercessors. Matter of fact that could be part of the Stratagem “upgrade”. At a 1 CP cost it would be inline with similar Stratagems elsewhere such as SftS.

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#77
ShibeKing

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Gravis seem more like Diet Centurions to me.
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#78
Ishagu

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I don't think we've seen any first company primaris yet. Whether that will be a separate wave or whether we get kits soon will be interesting to see. There certainly seems to be a lot of speculation about a veteran intercessors kit.


GW don't write rules for things they don't model anymore.

The extra options available to the Intercessors suggests either a new kit, an expansive upgrade sprue or a veteran kit (similar to Sternguard) that acts as both a new unit and a source of upgrade parts for the rest of the army.

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#79
Black_Star

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@Black_Star: Or you know... Vows... msn-wink.gif


I would think those would be better as a chapter tactic?

#80
Lemondish

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It's not really the equivalent. It's similarly durable on the board and gives off a similar presence (bulky Marine infantry), but they aren't Veterans or anything and can't deep strike by default like Terminators can do.

Although I’d like to see it as a built in feature, I defintiely think a proper stratagem could cover the lack of a deep strike ability. As far as Veterans they could even be added in the same way as Veteran Intercessors. Matter of fact that could be part of the Stratagem “upgrade”. At a 1 CP cost it would be inline with similar Stratagems elsewhere such as SftS.

The only way these additional CP unlocked veteran units will be successful is if EVERY Marine force, not just Ultras, could gain CP from unit choices above and beyond the Detachments themselves.

#81
Black Blow Fly

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Gravis seem more like Diet Centurions to me.

Gravis seem more like Diet Centurions to me.


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#82
bolvar

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I agree that chaplains need changes/buffs, but I don't think converting them into loyalist dark apostles is the right way to do.

 

I find that their abilities are, at the very core, correct: improves morale and everyone fight better around them. But I think there is a double issue:

One is about rerolls: marines usually hit at 3+ both in shooting phase and fight phase, that makes rerolling 1s a very powerful buff, because you only miss at 2s. And there are other units which, without being that good at giving rerolls around them, do enough to displace chaplains, for example, captains and other equivalent units which also give rerolls to both the shooting and fight phase.

 

Second one revolves around the leadership bubble: while on the paper is good, on the table is not that good because marines are played in small/medium size units and have good base leadership stat. That alone, with the current morale rules, decreases a lot the strength of this ability. And I believe that against -ld bubbles, the leadership bubble doesn't prevent to falling into low ld (also, there are too few units across the 40k armies that do this). Add ATSKNF into this redundant train, being baseline for every marine, into the mix and you get an ability that most of games you don't even use once.

 

Given that the majority of SM armies leans more towards shooting rather than melee doesn't help either, talking about the fight phase rerolls.

 

How to fix this? Tough call. Either you make chaplains true and glorious monsters at CC, or you nerf reroll abilities of almost everything while buffing his ld bubble to the levels of auto pass morale checks.

 

Sadly, I can't see any fix for our chaplains in the short time. Maybe with a new edition...


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#83
Lemondish

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I agree that chaplains need changes/buffs, but I don't think converting them into loyalist dark apostles is the right way to do.

I find that their abilities are, at the very core, correct: improves morale and everyone fight better around them. But I think there is a double issue:
One is about rerolls: marines usually hit at 3+ both in shooting phase and fight phase, that makes rerolling 1s a very powerful buff, because you only miss at 2s. And there are other units which, without being that good at giving rerolls around them, do enough to displace chaplains, for example, captains and other equivalent units which also give rerolls to both the shooting and fight phase.

Second one revolves around the leadership bubble: while on the paper is good, on the table is not that good because marines are played in small/medium size units and have good base leadership stat. That alone, with the current morale rules, decreases a lot the strength of this ability. And I believe that against -ld bubbles, the leadership bubble doesn't prevent to falling into low ld (also, there are too few units across the 40k armies that do this). Add ATSKNF into this redundant train, being baseline for every marine, into the mix and you get an ability that most of games you don't even use once.

Given that the majority of SM armies leans more towards shooting rather than melee doesn't help either, talking about the fight phase rerolls.

How to fix this? Tough call. Either you make chaplains true and glorious monsters at CC, or you nerf reroll abilities of almost everything while buffing his ld bubble to the levels of auto pass morale checks.

Sadly, I can't see any fix for our chaplains in the short time. Maybe with a new edition...

There are a million different ways to fix them, but none that fit the arbitrary limitations you've applied based entirely on what you personally think or want. That is very different than saying a new edition is the only answer.

Edited by Lemondish, 18 July 2019 - 01:48 AM.


#84
War Angel

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If they’re reroll bubble was failed hits in close combat, that would make it stand out against captains. If it included wounds, it would be an easy take over captains and or LT’s in armies that want to get in close.
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#85
Dracos

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Chaplain = reroll armor / invul saves


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#86
Maritn

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Chaplain = reroll armor / invul saves

As long as it's not just another bubble that encourages you to blob even harder, yes please.

I just wish marines would not require so much blobbing.

Edit: More specific abilities for the characters could lead to a more interesting play style and allow for better balance at lower points games. But that's enough OT from me I guess.

Edited by Maritn, 18 July 2019 - 06:05 AM.

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#87
Tamiel

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A rule like Angels of death would surely have to apply to all marines, the name is too associated with old marines to be Primaris specific.

 

You'd think so, but then again there's no reason why ATSKNF shouldn't apply to Chaos Marines either. If anything they should be even more fearless.

 

ATSKNF is about how a loyal Space Marine is unafraid of dying because he lives to serve the Emperor. He has been brainwashed since early childhood to believe serving the Emperor to be the be-all end-all of things. This is the type of mentality that allows him to feel no fear.

A chaos space marine has left this mindset altogether. Not only that, but a Chaos Space Marine has great ambitions in life (such as becoming a daemon prince being one of the higher ambitions). Dying means he can no longer attain those ambitions, so he is afraid of death. A loyalist marine sees death (or even getting tortured to death) in the name of the emperor to be the greatest thing he can do with his own life. To a chaos space marine, death is the complete loss of achieving all the things he wanted to achieve. There are fearless chaos space marines, but to say that the average chaos space marine is fearless is far from true.


Edited by Tamiel, 18 July 2019 - 06:08 AM.

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#88
Captain Idaho

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Regarding ability auras... I'd like Captains to work on a basis that they can grant their rerolls to a unit rather than have to be within 6". It gives the impression they are coordinating fire whilst leading an attack.

Chaplain = reroll armor / invul saves

I'd be all over that with my Cataphractii Terminators!

Edited by Captain Idaho, 18 July 2019 - 06:10 AM.

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#89
Metzombie

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If they’re reroll bubble was failed hits in close combat, that would make it stand out against captains.

It is exactly that.

A quick and easy buff would be to change the aura to "reroll hits in the combat phase". This would help unit with weapons like powerfists very much.


Edited by Metzombie, 18 July 2019 - 06:30 AM.

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#90
Sete

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@ Black_Star (at work cant quote)

Personally I would prefer CT to be a close combat bonus, and the vows to be specific BT prayers inspired in the old vows, giving other bonus to the army.

For example you are facing a heavy psyker army, Vow Abhor the witch, etc.

It wont happen, but hey a guy can dream ;)


Edited by Sete, 18 July 2019 - 06:35 AM.


#91
Ishagu

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Chaplains should grant bonuses to close combat like extra attacks and not having to take morale tesrs for casualties when one in nearby.

How useful they are relates to the quality of units they can bolster. If Astartes have a great cc option that extra attack becomes a big deal.

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#92
UnkyHamHam

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I'd simply exchange the reroll close combat hits aura for a +1 strength or attack aura. Slap on the ability to deny one psychic power. Even if it was just a single D6. That would go a long ways to me.
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#93
Captain Idaho

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+1 Strength would be divine.

Chaplains should also be complete beatsticks. Focused with close combat on the frontlines whilst Captains should grant strategy and tactical support.

I agree that Marines need to up the ante on assault force. Primaris need it whilst Classic Marines need boosts to Terminators etc. (3 wounds and a WS and BS 2+)

Edited by Captain Idaho, 18 July 2019 - 08:50 AM.


#94
sfPanzer

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+1 Would be fun for Blood Angels. Wounding Knights on a 4+ and other Marines on a 2+ with Chainswords. :D


But redundant with our Sanguinary Priest unfortunately since he always has such an aura. So I'd prefer a +1A aura instead. :P


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#95
Captain Idaho

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Blood Angels can have Chaplains that grant extra attacks to mark them differently - they whip the Blood Angels into a frenzy rather than focus their energies on divine strength.

#96
Orange Knight

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This is a very interesting topic and I've seen some nice suggestions. I echo the sentiment that Astartes need a new set of stratagems and chapter tactics to bring them more in line with other factions. It's not down to the datasheet as much anymore - Knights and Orks illustrate this point very well, as do Eldar.

I'm just hoping that Games Workshop don't keep us waiting for too long. They've dropped quite a few hints and teases at this point, maybe they'll start to focus on Astartes after WarCry.

#97
Captain Idaho

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The cynic in me says that, as long as people are buying Space Marines, GW won't need to boost Marine armies to be competitive.

Same goes for the monopose epidemic (hyperbole intended) I reckon. Folk keep buying them and GW won't bother.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 18 July 2019 - 09:52 AM.

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#98
Blindhamster

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Hey man, I could stop any time I want...
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Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
Blood Angels 4th company: Wins 10 Draws 3 Losses 4

 

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Blood Angels Primaris Blog


#99
Orange Knight

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The cynic in me says that, as long as people are buying Space Marines, GW won't need to boost Marine armies to be competitive.

Same goes for the monopose epidemic (hyperbole intended) I reckon. Folk keep buying them and GW won't bother.


This definitely isn't the case. GW have shown an intent to make the game balanced - but they haven't reached that lofty goal yet. They are also aware that more competitive armies sell better.
I do think that balancing the Primaris in particular might be easier than the traditional range - the units are more defined and equipped with unique wargear that can be altered independently. If the stratagems and chapter tactics in the next codex are as "spicy" (to quote the Long War) as they are in recent other books we won't have anything to worry about.

#100
Captain Idaho

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If it's definitely not the case, then why do all Marines releases, which sell well, get average rules yet factions which are more nichè get rules that destroy planets...?

Like I said, it's the cynic in me. I hope beyond hope that it's just a bit of good old fashioned poor rules writing when we can all see the problems of a release within weeks if not sooner.

But let's look at the Marines releases... great sales yet mediocre rules. So this contradicts the idea that competitive rules sell. Of course I believe competitive DOES sell more, but there are still purchases for fun and dare I say it because they look good. With Marines, this is much much more evident.

There is also the issue of what's cheapest. Not everyone has disposable income to flaunt so a cheaper "buy in" is important. Space Marines are in those cheaper boxed sets 99 times out of 100.
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