Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Lemondish]

Regarding ability auras... I'd like Captains to work on a basis that they can grant their rerolls to a unit rather than have to be within 6". It gives the impression they are coordinating fire whilst leading an attack.

 

 

Chaplain = reroll armor / invul saves

I'd be all over that with my Cataphractii Terminators!

That's certainly a cool concept represented in a game rule, but it's also significantly worse than the aura is today.

[Captain Idaho]

It's easily adjusted to more than one unit. Or one unit plus free use of a 1 CP Strategum per turn/1 CP discount per turn.

 

Whatever. Just different and not bound to the 6" aura shackle.

[Orange Knight]

If it's definitely not the case, then why do all Marines releases, which sell well, get average rules yet factions which are more nichè get rules that destroy planets...?

 

Like I said, it's the cynic in me. I hope beyond hope that it's just a bit of good old fashioned poor rules writing when we can all see the problems of a release within weeks if not sooner.

 

But let's look at the Marines releases... great sales yet mediocre rules. So this contradicts the idea that competitive rules sell. Of course I believe competitive DOES sell more, but there are still purchases for fun and dare I say it because they look good. With Marines, this is much much more evident.

 

There is also the issue of what's cheapest. Not everyone has disposable income to flaunt so a cheaper "buy in" is important. Space Marines are in those cheaper boxed sets 99 times out of 100.

The very likely reason for this is the simple fact that all Astartes books were written at the same time, at the start of 8th edition. Rules can be written a year or longer before they are released. Frontline gaming have very interesting insight into this throughout their various podcasts - they are some of the most notable play-testers for GW rules. They specifically mention that the order of release is not the same as the order things were completed or written in.

 

GW can't release 5 Astartes books one after another as the community won't be happy, however just because the Space Wolves codex came out nearly a full year after the Vanilla book does not indicate that it was written any more recently.

 

The Astartes ranges across all sub factions is by far the biggest, the most difficult to balance and the one with the most baggage from past editions. Looking at the 8th edition vanilla codex makes it pretty obvious that it was probably written part way through 7th edition - many of the stratagems involve combinations of units that were found in various formations prior to 8th.

 

Once you know about the vast delay between writing something and releasing it, and knowing that the same applies to the models, it all starts to make more sense and is also more forgivable. You will also notice that Primaris Marines have been largely neglected in terms of Stratagems, relics, etc. I think they will be the main focus of the next release and will be supported by many new rules - in fact I would be willing to put money on it, and I am not generally a gambling man! In any case, we won't have long to wait.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Just to play devil's advocate here, balancing is by far one of the hardest parts of rules writing. It's easy as players to say that all they need to do to fix things is to change or add X, Y, Z but they also have to think about how that interacts with multiples of the same unit, other units in the codex, auras, warlord traits, chapter tactics, strategems, game modes, board setup and that's without even thinking about interactions with other codexes. And that's just to BALANCE codexes let alones make them competitive.

[Sete]

That's why if the new Codex is full on primaris, all chapters should be on it except DW and GK.

I would even argue that DW should be on it.(@Orange Knight)

Edited July 18, 2019 by Sete

[War Angel]

I agree to putting all chapters (DW and Grey knights arnt chapters) into the all Primaris codex. It would be very easy to put the rules to make the more unique chapters retain their flavor.

[Triszin]

I could be wrong but pretty sure Gravis army is Primaris Terminator equivalent. Happy to be wrong about that mind you. I would be all in on a Centurion size Primaris. I’d rather they gave Aggressors +1A for two melee weapons and Intercessors a sword and board option but I wouldn’t turn down some tank sized Primaris either :)

Gravis, I think was initally supposed to be a Terminator replacement, but they have since pulled away from that. There was a recent article about terminators and gravis was not in it, I'd say gravis is now more akin to mk3 armor, with frontal assault plates.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that article pointed out the larger Astartes figures who wore Terminator armour and how it is a modular entity that covers the individual rather that the individual fitting inside it.

 

Implies to me they are gearing up for Primaris Terminators, each as large as Abaddon.

[Lemondish]

Yeah that article pointed out the larger Astartes figures who wore Terminator armour and how it is a modular entity that covers the individual rather that the individual fitting inside it.

 

Implies to me they are gearing up for Primaris Terminators, each as large as Abaddon.

As long as they have the same iconic aesthetic then I'm game.

 

I love Terminators. I just want them to look vaguely human, far more imposing than they currently do, and be better on the table.

[Triszin]

 

Yeah that article pointed out the larger Astartes figures who wore Terminator armour and how it is a modular entity that covers the individual rather that the individual fitting inside it.

 

Implies to me they are gearing up for Primaris Terminators, each as large as Abaddon.

As long as they have the same iconic aesthetic then I'm game.

 

I love Terminators. I just want them to look vaguely human, far more imposing than they currently do, and be better on the table.

That + give terminators a gellar shield 5-6+ against smite imho.

[Ishagu]

 

If it's definitely not the case, then why do all Marines releases, which sell well, get average rules yet factions which are more nichè get rules that destroy planets...?

 

Like I said, it's the cynic in me. I hope beyond hope that it's just a bit of good old fashioned poor rules writing when we can all see the problems of a release within weeks if not sooner.

 

But let's look at the Marines releases... great sales yet mediocre rules. So this contradicts the idea that competitive rules sell. Of course I believe competitive DOES sell more, but there are still purchases for fun and dare I say it because they look good. With Marines, this is much much more evident.

 

There is also the issue of what's cheapest. Not everyone has disposable income to flaunt so a cheaper "buy in" is important. Space Marines are in those cheaper boxed sets 99 times out of 100.

The very likely reason for this is the simple fact that all Astartes books were written at the same time, at the start of 8th edition. Rules can be written a year or longer before they are released. Frontline gaming have very interesting insight into this throughout their various podcasts - they are some of the most notable play-testers for GW rules. They specifically mention that the order of release is not the same as the order things were completed or written in.

 

GW can't release 5 Astartes books one after another as the community won't be happy, however just because the Space Wolves codex came out nearly a full year after the Vanilla book does not indicate that it was written any more recently.

 

The Astartes ranges across all sub factions is by far the biggest, the most difficult to balance and the one with the most baggage from past editions. Looking at the 8th edition vanilla codex makes it pretty obvious that it was probably written part way through 7th edition - many of the stratagems involve combinations of units that were found in various formations prior to 8th.

 

Once you know about the vast delay between writing something and releasing it, and knowing that the same applies to the models, it all starts to make more sense and is also more forgivable. You will also notice that Primaris Marines have been largely neglected in terms of Stratagems, relics, etc. I think they will be the main focus of the next release and will be supported by many new rules - in fact I would be willing to put money on it, and I am not generally a gambling man! In any case, we won't have long to wait.

Yeah FLG have mentioned this over and over on multiple podcasts. I think it's obvious that all the Astartes books were done at the same time and then staggered out in terms of releases. Of all the 8th edition books they are probably the most bland overall at this point in time.

 

From a few hints dropped here and there it sounds that whatever the next codex is, it's going to be a shake up and not just a mild update like we saw with Chaos. It should be mentioned that the Chaos book is far more interesting and competitive than any of the loyalist Astartes books.

[Ezr91aeL]

It's not really the equivalent. It's similarly durable on the board and gives off a similar presence (bulky Marine infantry), but they aren't Veterans or anything and can't deep strike by default like Terminators can do.

Aggressors cannot deepstrike, but you forget that Inceptors are in Gravis too. For the veteran thing, well, yeah, but bothing excludes a new veteran kit in the future, maybe with StormShield or some other kind of inv. save.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If a new codex is released it should be just as good as say GSC and Orks. They really did a terribad job.

[Panzer]

 

It's not really the equivalent. It's similarly durable on the board and gives off a similar presence (bulky Marine infantry), but they aren't Veterans or anything and can't deep strike by default like Terminators can do.

Aggressors cannot deepstrike, but you forget that Inceptors are in Gravis too. For the veteran thing, well, yeah, but bothing excludes a new veteran kit in the future, maybe with StormShield or some other kind of inv. save.

 

 

I didn't forget that. They are Jump Pack infantry though which again is very different from what Terminators are.

[undivided_apostle]

I would assume it will be similar to what they did for chaos space marines so the codex will have minor updates but there will be a campaign book with the specialist detachments and rules for ultra marines and a few other chapters.

[Lemondish]

I would assume it will be similar to what they did for chaos space marines so the codex will have minor updates but there will be a campaign book with the specialist detachments and rules for ultra marines and a few other chapters.

 

I'm not sure that's likely, but it would make sense. I just don't see another campaign book coming anytime soon. 

[Ishagu]

I would assume it will be similar to what they did for chaos space marines so the codex will have minor updates but there will be a campaign book with the specialist detachments and rules for ultra marines and a few other chapters.

Why do you think so? Just by the sheer weight of new units the next book will already be more substantially different than what occurred with the Chaos codex. If the next Astartes book is indeed Primaris focused that means it will have mostly new stratagems and relics too.

[Panzer]

Actually I think it's soon time for the next campaign release. Just not necessarily for Primaris and not on the scale of the last one.

[Captain Idaho]

We don't know that the new Codex will be Primaris focussed, just that it will include new Primaris units.

 

If there is a decent new Codex we'll get new Strategums but I fear this edition GW is happy with the sales of Marines and therefore doesn't see a problem with the rules beyond points and tweaks.

[Ishagu]

We don't know that the new Codex will be Primaris focussed, just that it will include new Primaris units.

 

If there is a decent new Codex we'll get new Strategums but I fear this edition GW is happy with the sales of Marines and therefore doesn't see a problem with the rules beyond points and tweaks.

Yes this would be the best cast scenario!

[Sete]

I assume multipart Vanguard will also be released on this next wave? Along with Eliminators?

Managed to overcome my hatred, and will buy a couple for my Grey Talons Kill Team.

[Sete]

By the way:

via anonymous sources on Faeit 212

"the new marines codex will be out in late august."

 

I know, I know its faeit but hey, it's something...

[Panzer]

By the way:

via anonymous sources on Faeit 212

"the new marines codex will be out in late august."

 

I know, I know its faeit but hey, it's something...

 

I'm at a point where I can ignore Faeit, BoLS and similar rumour sources without even trying. Still nice to see that the usual sites also picked up the possibility of a new Marine Codex soon happening. :D

[War Angel]

Has anyone done the math on how many rumors they get right?

[Prot]

I’m going to guess Adeptus Imperialis will be highly focused on new Primaris units which is a no brainer but I was reminiscing with a friend that’s been playing as long as I have, how much we miss ‘marines’ be valued as a unit. I used to run into marines in about 50% of my tournament games. Now it’s so rare to see any. I faced on of the only two marine players in my last tournie. They finished at the bottom fourth of the pack.

 

This is something I find incredibly wrong about 8 th.