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Blood Ravens Index Astartes Article

- - - - - Blood Ravens Chapter

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#1
AHorriblePerson

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The photos weren't taken by me, but here are the new rules:

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Thoughts?



#2
FelipeFlops

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The photos weren't taken by me, but here are the new rules:

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Thoughts?

 

Relentless Seekers is ok, only applies if your marines are getting shot at with STR 8 or above weapons, though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine. 

 

Gabriel gets a solid 8 attacks with the Sweeping Blows attack, quite an improvement on the rather situational Arcing Swing of the old rules which was just one hit role for every model within 1". Leap into the Fray is also a lot more useful than Retribution. Lost his grenades though and points remain unchanged.

 

Stratagem is good, powering up a Librarian for 1CP is great.

 

Relic pistol is nasty.


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#3
Panzer

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 though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine. 

 

 

It doesn't though. It only stops unmodified(!) wound rolls of 1 and 2. So a modified roll of 2 (aka 3s with +1 to-wound) still work.


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#4
War Angel

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A move 6 terminator, with 8 attacks, and 50% chance to do an additional 1-3 mortal wounds. Hitting on twos.
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#5
Brother Casman

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Overall, I like the rules for the Blood Ravens, I'll definitely give them a run in my games.
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#6
FelipeFlops

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 though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine. 

 

 

It doesn't though. It only stops unmodified(!) wound rolls of 1 and 2. So a modified roll of 2 (aka 3s with +1 to-wound) still work.

 

 

Wouldn't the "irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" prevent any modification of a dice roll of 2 though?


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#7
Claws and Effect

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though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine.


It doesn't though. It only stops unmodified(!) wound rolls of 1 and 2. So a modified roll of 2 (aka 3s with +1 to-wound) still work.

Wouldn't the "irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" prevent any modification of a dice roll of 2 though?

Correct.

So, for example, Blood Angels that would wound on a 2+ with Red Thirst will only be able to wound on a 3+ at best.

And thunder hammers won't wound as easily, or overcharged plasma (a normally good way to kill Primaris).
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#8
Lemondish

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I am a little glad this isn't a must have choice for tactics because I've been really bad at keeping my focus on one chapter.

#9
FelipeFlops

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though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine.


It doesn't though. It only stops unmodified(!) wound rolls of 1 and 2. So a modified roll of 2 (aka 3s with +1 to-wound) still work.

Wouldn't the "irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" prevent any modification of a dice roll of 2 though?

Correct.

So, for example, Blood Angels that would wound on a 2+ with Red Thirst will only be able to wound on a 3+ at best.

And thunder hammers won't wound as easily, or overcharged plasma (a normally good way to kill Primaris).

 

 

Seems like the unmodified part is a bit of a red herring in this circumstance, essentially says "an unmodified roll of a 2 that you couldn't modify anyway".

 

Though actually it will be interesting if stratagems count in this situation. It say "abilities of the model making the attack" but does that mean just those on their data sheets or those given to them via stratagems as well.


Edited by FelipeFlops, 15 July 2019 - 04:02 PM.

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#10
Lemondish

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Seems like the unmodified part is a bit of a red herring in this circumstance, essentially says "an unmodified roll of a 2 that you couldn't modify anyway".

 

Though actually it will be interesting if stratagems count in this situation. It say "abilities of the model making the attack" but does that mean just those on their data sheets or those given to them via stratagems as well.

 

Great question. 

 

Another important point is that Gabes re-roll aura emulates Cawl's - it's all hit rolls, not just failed ones. 


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#11
Panzer

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Another important point is that Gabes re-roll aura emulates Cawl's - it's all hit rolls, not just failed ones. 

 

 

It seems to me that GW only recently realised that letting people have the option to re-roll even initially succeeded rolls makes for an overall better ruleset considering stackable hit modifier are a part of the game that looks like it'll stay. Kinda like a stealth nerf to Eldar that'll roll out ever so slowly.


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#12
SkimaskMohawk

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I can see a faq addressing Gabe to normal chapter master rerolls, while making the tactic affect stratagems. But knowing gw they'll probably just change gabes and say strats give the bonus.

I feel like after the upcoming marine book and any changes to the librarius discipline might push blood ravens as one of the best primaris chapters.

#13
Lord Raven 19

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though what is good is it negates the benefits of those factions using STR5-7 weapons with a +1 to wound strat. Re-rolls to 1s for Deny the Witch is fine.


It doesn't though. It only stops unmodified(!) wound rolls of 1 and 2. So a modified roll of 2 (aka 3s with +1 to-wound) still work.

Wouldn't the "irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" prevent any modification of a dice roll of 2 though?

Correct.
So, for example, Blood Angels that would wound on a 2+ with Red Thirst will only be able to wound on a 3+ at best.
And thunder hammers won't wound as easily, or overcharged plasma (a normally good way to kill Primaris).
 
Seems like the unmodified part is a bit of a red herring in this circumstance, essentially says "an unmodified roll of a 2 that you couldn't modify anyway".
 
Though actually it will be interesting if stratagems count in this situation. It say "abilities of the model making the attack" but does that mean just those on their data sheets or those given to them via stratagems as well.
I read it as that, if you roll a 1 or a 2 to wound on your dice, it has a 0% chance of success.
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#14
Tyberos the Red Wake

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Sorry if this has already been updated/covered, but I noticed the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactics are optional and not mandatory, even if you're actually playing the real <Blood Ravens>. If I remember correctly, reading my 8th Edition codex at launch, your Chapter Tactics were only optional if you did not know your progenitor. If you played, for example, <Ultramarines>, you HAD to use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics. Is this still the case? And if not, why is Blood Ravens the only "confirmed" chapter that gets to choose not to use their official Chapter Tactics?

 

Here is the relevant text, directly from the printed codex:

 

 

 

The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an ULTRAMARINES unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline Tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists. If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.

 

Here is the text for Blood Ravens:

 

 

 

If your army includes any BLOOD RAVENS Detachments -- that is, a Detachment that only includes units with the BLOOD RAVENS keyword -- then when determining which Chapter Tactic units in a Blood Ravens Detachment gain, you can either choose the Chapter Tactic that you feel best represents Blood Ravens on the battlefield (as described in Codex: Space Marines) or you can choose the Blood Ravens: Relentless Seekers Chapter Tactic presented here. All Blood Ravens Detachments in your army must use the same Chapter Tactic; make it clear to your opponent before the battle begins which Chapter Tactic they are using.

 

You can choose the Chapter Tactic that you feel best represents Blood Ravens on the battlefield. To me, that is very huge. It means you get the benefit of your unique relics/stratagems/characters, but still get to cherry pick your Chapter Tactics. I am assuming this is only because GW does not want to force Blood Ravens players to have to buy this publication, and still be able to play a "pre-Index Astartes" version of the force, but if this comes to other chapters, such as Ultramarines who want Guilliman, but a different Chapter Tactic, it would be a crazy change. Probably not going to happen, but I found it extremely interesting and it jumped out at me immediately.

 

It also conflicts with the status quo of Badab War chapters and unknown foundings. Right now, according to even FW and official FAQ's themselves, chapters which were previously Codex: Space Marines only, such as the Minotaurs and Star Phantoms, can choose whichever Adeptus Astartes Chapter Tactics they want: even Space Wolves and Blood Angels. But Blood Ravens are LOCKED into vanilla, as they should be. Should other vanilla chapters not follow suit, at least for official ruling? Obviously friendlies and casual games are free to play how they please.


Edited by Tyberos the Red Wake, 16 July 2019 - 01:34 AM.

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#15
Gederas

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Sorry if this has already been updated/covered, but I noticed the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactics are optional and not mandatory, even if you're actually playing the real <Blood Ravens>. If I remember correctly, reading my 8th Edition codex at launch, your Chapter Tactics were only optional if you did not know your progenitor. If you played, for example, <Ultramarines>, you HAD to use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics. Is this still the case? And if not, why is Blood Ravens the only "confirmed" chapter that gets to choose not to use their official Chapter Tactics?

 

Here is the relevant text, directly from the printed codex:

The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an ULTRAMARINES unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline Tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists. If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.

 

Here is the text for Blood Ravens:

If your army includes any BLOOD RAVENS Detachments -- that is, a Detachment that only includes units with the BLOOD RAVENS keyword -- then when determining which Chapter Tactic units in a Blood Ravens Detachment gain, you can either choose the Chapter Tactic that you feel best represents Blood Ravens on the battlefield (as described in Codex: Space Marines) or you can choose the Blood Ravens: Relentless Seekers Chapter Tactic presented here. All Blood Ravens Detachments in your army must use the same Chapter Tactic; make it clear to your opponent before the battle begins which Chapter Tactic they are using.

You can choose the Chapter Tactic that you feel best represents Blood Ravens on the battlefield. To me, that is very huge. It means you get the benefit of your unique relics/stratagems/characters, but still get to cherry pick your Chapter Tactics. I am assuming this is only because GW does not want to force Blood Ravens players to have to buy this publication, and still be able to play a "pre-Index Astartes" version of the force, but if this comes to other chapters, such as Ultramarines who want Guilliman, but a different Chapter Tactic, it would be a crazy change. Probably not going to happen, but I found it extremely interesting and it jumped out at me immediately.

 

It also conflicts with the status quo of Badab War chapters and unknown foundings. Right now, according to even FW and official FAQ's themselves, chapters which were previously Codex: Space Marines only, such as the Minotaurs and Star Phantoms, can choose whichever Adeptus Astartes Chapter Tactics they want: even Space Wolves and Blood Angels. But Blood Ravens are LOCKED into vanilla, as they should be. Should other vanilla chapters not follow suit, at least for official ruling? Obviously friendlies and casual games are free to play how they please.

Because that's a bit of the Blood Ravens' fluff. They change their tactics to better suit their missions. This is a really cool case of Gameplay and Story Integration.

 

Plus: Blood Ravens don't know their progenitor. Bit of a major plot point for them because of it. So OF COURSE they'd be able to use multiple chapter tactics.



#16
SkimaskMohawk

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So one of the key lore points about the blood ravens and their main driving force is that they lost all records of their primarch and early history. Everything. That's why they scramble to collect lore so much.

Game terms, their lack of primarch/chapter based influence and their desire to learn gives a plausible reason to have access to the various tactics. It also subtly builds into the joke from Dawn of war about the blood ravens stealing everything, and gw have clearly referenced another meme in terms of angelos' charge ability. Now, they probably should have access to the other 3 codexes to complete the whole missing primarch thing, but they're also very quite codes adherent, so idk.

#17
Tyberos the Red Wake

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So it would be reasonable to assume this is a unique exception special to the Blood Ravens themselves as an added bonus? I'm fine with that, it's very cool. I was just curious. I don't believe there are any other "unknown" Chapters who have received their own unique Chapter Tactics in 8th Edition, so we have no precedent for this situation.


"Grey-clad, they came from the outer night to aid the Imperium, and their jagged maw did swallow the stars, and their black gaze did mirror the void of oblivion."

- The Canticle of Cassandria Lev - Vol.CVI [Circa M37]


#18
Claws and Effect

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So it would be reasonable to assume this is a unique exception special to the Blood Ravens themselves as an added bonus? I'm fine with that, it's very cool. I was just curious. I don't believe there are any other "unknown" Chapters who have received their own unique Chapter Tactics in 8th Edition, so we have no precedent for this situation.


I'd say that's a reasonable assumption, yes.

It also quite clearly squashes the possibility of using different tactics for units they benefit more by stating that the whole army must use the same tactic.

#19
SkimaskMohawk

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So Relentless Seekers also applies to rerolls RAW.

"An unmodified wound roll of a 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or model making that attack may have."

We know the order of operations for wound rolls is the following:

unmodified wound roll>re roll based off unmodified results>modify rerolled wounds>final result

But Seekers tells us that the unmodified roll always fails, regardless of abilities. And unless it's a stratagem, the reroll is directly tied to an ability.

#20
Lemondish

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So Relentless Seekers also applies to rerolls RAW.

"An unmodified wound roll of a 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or model making that attack may have."

We know the order of operations for wound rolls is the following:

unmodified wound roll>re roll based off unmodified results>modify rerolled wounds>final result

But Seekers tells us that the unmodified roll always fails, regardless of abilities. And unless it's a stratagem, the reroll is directly tied to an ability.

 

I do not follow. 



#21
SkimaskMohawk

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A reroll is applied to an unmodified dice roll. If the unmodified roll was a 1 or 2, relentless seekers tells us it always fails, regardless of abilities. Thus, an ability based reroll can't be applied to an unmodified 1 or 2 to wound.

#22
Panzer

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But the re-roll makes it so that the roll isn't a 1 or 2 (ideally). It's not modifying it, it's changing the roll itself.


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#23
SkimaskMohawk

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I totally see what you're saying. To me, the "always" and more importantly, the extremely non-specific phrasing of abilities is what prevents ability based re-rolls. The unmodified part goes into order of operations.

But I'll fully admit my reading is influenced by how I read rules and legislation.

#24
Lemondish

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I'm really glad this hasn't made me jump to change or add to my Blood Ravens.

Edited by Lemondish, 17 July 2019 - 12:06 PM.

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#25
SkimaskMohawk

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Doing mainly primaris? Because that and the vanguard librarian specifically seem like winners for blood ravens





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