So how long before GW retires the non-Primaris range?

[Ishagu]

Not for a long time. Even if the range ultimately ends up as being online only the plastic kits won't be going anywhere.

[Sete]

Ill give an educated guess of 5 years minimum, and even so they might not go away.

But to expect new releases for them? It aint happening. The Firstborn range if finished, the best people can expect is primaris versions of firstborn ones ex: Calgar.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Sete

[Robbienw]

In the long term its definitely possible there will be new releases, in my view.  GW has a habit of revisiting older models after long periods.

[Captain Idaho]

Again, GW also increased prices of other factions. Claiming they've done so to push Primaris is a bit ridiculous. They also already have told us that the Primaris range is a huge success and sells even better than they were expecting.

Buying boxed sets is fine. GW still makes profit with those or they wouldn't offer them. I mostly bought my T'au via discount boxed sets as well (Start Collecting, christmas Battleforce, soon the Apoc), not to mention I bought those from a store where I get a 20% discount anyway.

Prices going up across the board does help push sales of recent product releases, regardless of faction.

 

GW have said sales have been good but not told us which sales. I don't believe ANY faction they release will sell amazing without a boxed set for a discount. Not in today's economic climate.

 

I certainly never said GW didn't make profits on the sales they do make.

 

Ultimately, Primaris have been sold widely as they've been financially viable compared to other GW released.

 

And my point, which seems to have slipped under the radar, is GW will want to return their investment so will focus on Primaris Marines exclusively.

 

Whether that is sound business practice in the long run is immaterial to my point.

[Ishagu]

I think the Thunder warriors are turning in their graves at classics being the "first" born

The classic Astartes have been referred to as many thing in recent BL books.

 

A less flattering term was "Thin Bloods" due to the degradation of the gene seed after millennia of re-use.

 

I don't know if Firstborn is the most accurate term, seeing as the Thunder Warriors did indeed come first and they were proto-Astartes. Also, many of the Primaris including certain notable characters and captains are the same age as Guilliman and hail from the glory days of the Imperium.

 

Interesting for sure.

[Marshal Rohr]

They can’t discontinue oldmarines unless they are shutting the doors on every event a hundred years before the current timeline. Primaris don’t exist as a fighting force between M31 and M41. You can’t have Badab Primaris or Armageddon Primaris. Once the new factory is built you’ll probably see old marines move to monomark specialist games boxes or something. Cadia has been dead for a hundred years and they didn’t replace their models. Edited July 23, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Subtleknife]

I reckon they will be in a codex of some sort for a while but there wont be any major release of new models for the nor much support. They will slowly fade into the background and then once this has occurred they will be cut. 

[Marshal Rohr]

They will be doing at least mark 2 armor eventually so that is going to be an important release. Mark 5 is too popular not to do, so there’s a good chance for that as well. Edited July 23, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Kenzaburo]

What I don't understand, even now, is the decision to make the Deathwatch veterans, clearly classic space marines, with slightly refined proportions. The kit is stunning, really new and seemed to me like the way forward. They don't seem out of place next to Firstborn, while looking slightly better. 

 

The Veterans are a weird decision - they don't even serve as a stop-gap. Why not release further Firstborn minis looking like the DW minis? Mono-Primaris might work, if you look at them purely through sales-tinted glasses, but all other departments would cry foul. Lore and design studios would be boxed in in the new timeline, while DW-like Firstborn offer a wider variety in line with much of the background and thus a factor driving your sales. From a marketing PoV you don't alienate your customer base as much, while still producing awesome-looking minis that look a tad more modern. 

 

I'll happily admit that the rise of the Primaris is interesting from a lore point of view, in regards to conflict inside the Imperium. If it was a necessary conflict, considering, that there was only war from the get-go, remains debateable. 

[Robbienw]

What I don't understand, even now, is the decision to make the Deathwatch veterans, clearly classic space marines, with slightly refined proportions. The kit is stunning, really new and seemed to me like the way forward. They don't seem out of place next to Firstborn, while looking slightly better. 

 

The Veterans are a weird decision - they don't even serve as a stop-gap. Why not release further Firstborn minis looking like the DW minis? 

 

They did, the space marine heroes series 1 tactical squad marines are proportioned like a deathwatch.  They are monopose though.

They can’t discontinue oldmarines unless they are shutting the doors on every event a hundred years before the current timeline. Primaris don’t exist as a fighting force between M31 and M41. You can’t have Badab Primaris or Armageddon Primaris. Once the new factory is built you’ll probably see old marines move to monomark specialist games boxes or something. Cadia has been dead for a hundred years and they didn’t replace their models.

 

Indeed.  For this reason alone i find it inconceivable that they would discontinue standard Space Marines.

[Robbienw]

Thin bloods was a pejorative term Pasanius used in the uriel ventris books once, referring to a late founding ultramarines successor who had fallen to chaos.  Because the geneseed was so far removed from the original ultramarine stock iirc.  Not a term you can apply to the majority of space marines, as most chapters have stable geneseed.  

 

Firstborn is a colloquial term used in a small region of imperial space.

 

I think the correct term for classic space marine should just be 'Space Marines', with primaris being referred to as 'Primaris Space Marines' or 'Primaris Marines'.  Or 'Classic Marines' because it sounds cool :D

[Ishagu]

Thin bloods was a pejorative term Pasanius used in the uriel ventris books once, referring to a late founding ultramarines successor who had fallen to chaos. Because the geneseed was so far removed from the original ultramarine stock iirc. Not a term you can apply to the majority of space marines, as most chapters have stable geneseed.

 

Firstborn is a colloquial term used in a small region of imperial space.

 

I think the correct term for classic space marine should just be 'Space Marines', with primaris being referred to as 'Primaris Space Marines' or 'Primaris Marines'. Or 'Classic Marines' because it sounds cool :D

The term was used extensively in the recent book "Honour and Iron"

 

Veteran traitor Astartes from the age of the HH were using it as an insult for loyalists.

[jester_prince]

I think as and when the molds wear out. They won't be willing to get more produced for outdated models or if a particularly poor performing model.

 

We will likely see them become GW exclusive before they perminently go away.

I think as and when the molds wear out. They won't be willing to get more produced for outdated models or if a particularly poor performing model.

 

We will likely see them become GW exclusive before they perminently go away.

[Panzer]

Fair argument that we are going to need classic Marine models for pre Great rift scenarios, however I'm not sure GW is willing to support those in the far future. I expect we're going to get legacy rules like AoS players got for Tomb Kings etc, but eventually they'll stop selling those models for good.

[Panzer]

I'm not directly comparing them. Just pointing out that GW isn't opposed to the idea of having an army just as legacy around with only minor rules support and no proper model support.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Brother Tyler
WHFB/AoS removed

[Captain Idaho]

Whether it is a fair comparison or not, I am of the cynical position that I really do think GW will leave Classic Marines to fade as a memory.

[SickSix]

Not for a long time. Even if the range ultimately ends up as being online only the plastic kits won't be going anywhere.

Here we are back to complete opposites. I think that is a ridiculous assumption. I am reading a lot of people still applying 'old GW' habits and logic to our modern times. This is NOT Old GW. And up until very recently nearly everyone was glad for it. But now we see some old habits return. Lack of extra parts and customization being the biggest one.

 

GW IS NOT going to maintain the entire Firstborn model line and a complete Primaris line up. If they intended for current kits to last THEN PRIMARIS WOULD BE ABLE TO RIDE IN FRIGGIN LAND RAIDERS!

 

Every new release cements the fact that Firstborn are done. From model/rules releases to Black Library.

 

I have just about finished listening to Dark Imperium for the second time. Cawl Inferior states that every chapter of Space Marines has been provided the knowledge to make Primaris. ADB shows us how chapters that didn't get live Primaris reinforcements used data they were given to switch over to Primaris production. (He kind of leaves out who is making their new war gear and equipment but I guess that's nitpicking)

 

They even convert a Firstborn in the book in sub-par conditions and on a subject that is severely damaged. They even call the process the 'Calgarian Rites'.

 

GW is taking EVERY opportunity to show us that Primaris is the future and the only future. And as far as I can tell every major Black Library Space Marine storyline is also moving FORWARD not backwards. It's possible we might seem some Space Marine Battles books that still take place before M41 but I highly doubt it. GW and BL are clearly unified in pushing Primaris ascendancy.

 

Calgar will be the first of many characters converted over. (Still wish they would have just killed off these 30 year old characters and came up with new ones)

 

Like I just don't see how others are NOT seeing this.

 

My hope is FW is smart enough to release game expansions after the Heresy covering the Scouring. Firstborn players would FLOCK to that.

 

I think the 'indexing' of Firstborn is coming sooner than many believe. I would be shocked if it took more than 5 years. Also I had a personal revelation this morning and realised a good portion of my saltiness toward this transition is that I have so much model backlog and have actually played very few games of 40k over the last 5 years or so. So some of my sourness is actually guilt from not finishing projects and playing more games. Saying that I still am baffled at how others deny the writing on the wall.

Edited July 23, 2019 by SickSix

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not directly comparing them. Just pointing out that GW isn't opposed to the idea of having an army just as legacy around with only minor rules support and no proper model support.

 

@Idaho, Forge World will keep supporting them as they move the Heresy range from Resin to plastic by 2022. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Brother Tyler
WHFB/AoS removed

[SickSix]

They can’t discontinue oldmarines unless they are shutting the doors on every event a hundred years before the current timeline. Primaris don’t exist as a fighting force between M31 and M41. You can’t have Badab Primaris or Armageddon Primaris. Once the new factory is built you’ll probably see old marines move to monomark specialist games boxes or something. Cadia has been dead for a hundred years and they didn’t replace their models.

1. A 4th war for Armageddon was hinted at in Cadia Falls. Primaris can be there.

 

2. Badab was a FW thing and is quite old now. GW cares not.

 

3. It's clear that they don't have to go back. There is plenty going on 'now' for them to cover. GW has fully embraced moving forward. This whole 10,000 years of lore to explore thing is over IMHO. (From GW, FW could still do more and would be smart to do it.)

[Marshal Reinhard]

Like I just don't see how others are NOT seeing this.

 

Eh, some of us just tired of having the argument and moved on.

[Robbienw]

 

Like I just don't see how others are NOT seeing this.

 

 

You shouldn't be surprised when people have differing views on future developments.  Its hard to predict things accurately when there are so many variables.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Robbienw

[Brother Tyler]

We don't need to discuss WHFB/AoS any more*.

 

For GW to get rid of legacy/classic Space Marines will require that they progress the storyline to a point where they no longer exist. With Dark Millennium/the Indomitus Crusade, we saw a small jump forward in time ("small" being relative here, especially in comparison to a "large" forward jump such as from the Horus Heresy to M41). How much further they advance the storyline is anyone's guess. For all we know, we're going to see the storyline hold steady for some time, such as what we saw with 1st through 7th editions basically holding steady and covering a range in time up to 999.M41 (allowing for the Badab War and other "historical" events to be covered). Alternately, we might see small incremental advances, perhaps a year or five or ten on a periodic basis. With the fact that the legacy/classic Space Marines still exist in the present, and indeed, with Chapters still creating legacy/classic Space Marines, combined with the typical lifespans of the Adeptus Astartes (even accounting for premature violent death), we would need to see an advance of several centuries for such an extinction to be reasonable.

 

Also, the continuance of the legacy/classic Space Marines allows for historical events to be portrayed. While Forge World's focus is currently on the Horus Heresy setting, we don't know what their plans are once they complete that cycle. While most indicators are that they are shifting to support of the specialist games range, it's not outside the realm of the possible for them to additionally revert to pre-Horus Heresy and produce (occasional) campaign books; and some of those might be historical (fans would love to see the Scouring, or the Age of Apostasy, or even historical events that are completely new or expansions of minor lore that has appeared previously). Even if Forge World doesn't do this via campaign books, GW proper might do so for special events and what-not. I find it much more likely that GW will focus on the "present," but I wouldn't write the possibility of historical events off entirely.

 

As for the "Firstborn" term, that is what one Chapter (the Emperor's Spears) calls their legacy/classic Space Marines. It's cool and characterful, but I wouldn't apply that across the board. It would be like calling every veteran a Sword Brother (because that's what the Black Templars do) or calling every captain a Shadow-Captain (because that's what the Raven Guard do).

 

 

 

* Or rather, any further mentions of WHFB/AoS stuff should clearly be relevant strictly to how the legacy/classic Space Marines vs. Primaris Space Marines transition.

[Master Commander Ajax]

I’m not sure they will.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the firstborn term was used by the Mentor's chapter serf in spears (which was a good read), but I agree that it isn't an official term. That said I think it's been tough to find a title for the older range and this one doesn't seem to rile anyone up.

 

As far as the main topic I think it will be years before they phase them out and I expect something's will stick around (for example I could see a new terminator kits scaled like the new chaos ones)

[Claws and Effect]

Firstborn aren't going anywhere.

 

You only have to look at the sheer number of 20+ year old kits from other factions that still sell and haven't been updated, without a "replacement" being introduced.

 

They might lose shelf space to new Primaris kits, and some of the less popular kits will probably go to online only eventually. But I doubt GW is going to flat out discontinue them.

 

The only reason the fantasy stuff was discontinued is because the entire game system was killed.

 

As long as 40k exists you'll still be able to get original Marines, even if there's little practical reason to play them.