Lieutenants any good?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Hiya, Blood Angels player here, but I figure this applies across most Astartes subfactions. I've got two Lieutenants (not Primaris) and are they any good? I've fielded them a couple times and I have no real opinion on them. They make a good, cheap HQ option.

[mel_danes]

There is no fun like slamming 4 lascannon shots into a Battlewagon and rolling 1,1,2,4 to wound. With the LT nearby I get to re-roll those 1's.

He is always nearby my Cpt. aura.

I take them every game.

[Vykes]

As a predominantly Chaos player (Marine only, no daemon gobbledygook  nonsense) Lieutenants are one of the absolute #1 things I'm jealous of* for the exact reason of Mel_Danes: the lascannon/melta 1's.  They're an absolute steal and can often, especially with the 9th's boys, work miracles.  They're cheap, they're dangerous, with Blood Angels** they definitely have a place.  

 

Frankly, just in terms of cost for extra HQ bodies compared to others, they definitely have a place in battleline formations. 

 

*I'm also insanely jealous and bewildered about the lack of chaos speeders of all kinds, Specialist sicarans, jump pack marines with options, sniper rifles, plasma cannons, heavy flamers, different termie armour, attack bikes, and drop pods in general... another thread there though. 

** Ex Blood Angel player, glory to the true sons of Lupercal.  

[Panzer]

Some people swear on Lieutenants for their aura, but imo they are pretty overcosted.

Just compare them to the basic Custodes Troops choice. 40p give you WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv2+/5++/6+++ (against psychic MW) vs 60p for WS2+ BS3+ S4 T4 W4 A3 Sv3+ character keyword and the re-roll aura.

That's 20p for a vastly inferior profile, character protection if there are other non-character units between you and the enemy (which doesn't mean much if they get hit by a Thunderhammer or similar while the Custodian Guard gets wounded only on a 3+ instead of 2+ and at least still has a 5++ to try and save against it) and the re-roll aura. For 7p they also get what's basically a Force sword with two Bolt pistols while the Lieutenant only gets a regular Power sword and a regular Bolt pistol for the same points. Though the weapon thing is mostly an issue for Primaris Lieutenants since regular Lieutenants at least can take stuff like Thunderhammers.

Lastly the Custodian Guard generates more CP than the Lieutenant simply by being a Troops choice instead of a HQ choice.

 

Also another reason why regular Lieutenants are at least worth looking at compared to Primaris Lieutenants is that you can give them a Jump Pack so they can also support your mobile frontline instead of having to stay with either your backline or the battleline so that gives you more tactical flexibility.

[Lemondish]

They bring one of the two most important auras for Marines, they're relatively cheap, and the non Primaris options can grab a jump pack.

 

At 3 attacks, even at WS 2+, they probably won't really stand out in melee much, but most of their value is in the aura.

[dice4thedicegod]

Some people swear on Lieutenants for their aura, but imo they are pretty overcosted.

Just compare them to the basic Custodes Troops choice. 40p give you WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv2+/5++/6+++ (against psychic MW) vs 60p for WS2+ BS3+ S4 T4 W4 A3 Sv3+ character keyword and the re-roll aura.

That's 20p for a vastly inferior profile, character protection if there are other non-character units between you and the enemy (which doesn't mean much if they get hit by a Thunderhammer or similar while the Custodian Guard gets wounded only on a 3+ instead of 2+ and at least still has a 5++ to try and save against it) and the re-roll aura. For 7p they also get what's basically a Force sword with two Bolt pistols while the Lieutenant only gets a regular Power sword and a regular Bolt pistol for the same points. Though the weapon thing is mostly an issue for Primaris Lieutenants since regular Lieutenants at least can take stuff like Thunderhammers.

Lastly the Custodian Guard generates more CP than the Lieutenant simply by being a Troops choice instead of a HQ choice.

 

Also another reason why regular Lieutenants are at least worth looking at compared to Primaris Lieutenants is that you can give them a Jump Pack so they can also support your mobile frontline instead of having to stay with either your backline or the battleline so that gives you more tactical flexibility.

As a one person beatstick, they are definitely not a good choice but that isn’t their role. You put them near a couple of heavy hitting units and they earn their points by leveraging your devastators, leviathan, hellblasters , smash cap etc

[Panzer]

 

Some people swear on Lieutenants for their aura, but imo they are pretty overcosted.

Just compare them to the basic Custodes Troops choice. 40p give you WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv2+/5++/6+++ (against psychic MW) vs 60p for WS2+ BS3+ S4 T4 W4 A3 Sv3+ character keyword and the re-roll aura.

That's 20p for a vastly inferior profile, character protection if there are other non-character units between you and the enemy (which doesn't mean much if they get hit by a Thunderhammer or similar while the Custodian Guard gets wounded only on a 3+ instead of 2+ and at least still has a 5++ to try and save against it) and the re-roll aura. For 7p they also get what's basically a Force sword with two Bolt pistols while the Lieutenant only gets a regular Power sword and a regular Bolt pistol for the same points. Though the weapon thing is mostly an issue for Primaris Lieutenants since regular Lieutenants at least can take stuff like Thunderhammers.

Lastly the Custodian Guard generates more CP than the Lieutenant simply by being a Troops choice instead of a HQ choice.

 

Also another reason why regular Lieutenants are at least worth looking at compared to Primaris Lieutenants is that you can give them a Jump Pack so they can also support your mobile frontline instead of having to stay with either your backline or the battleline so that gives you more tactical flexibility.

As a one person beatstick, they are definitely not a good choice but that isn’t their role. You put them near a couple of heavy hitting units and they earn their points by leveraging your devastators, leviathan, hellblasters , smash cap etc

 

 

It's part of their role though. If their only role would be to buff surrounding units they wouldn't need all those stats and could be cheaper in the first place. So completely ignoring how capable they are in a fight is not right either.

[Wraith776]

I've used them to great effect in my dark angels lists. A primaris running with the gun line, or a first born jumppack to support my assault marines.

 

Also surprisingly killy when given a relic weapon like the heavenfall blade or mace of redemption. Can easily take out equivalent characters or captains.

[The Unseen]

I don't find them as good as a lot of our other character choices, but they aren't bad.

They really need to be buffing stuff that wounds on 2s or 3s to be valuable though.

Rerolling 1s to wound when your looking for 5s is pretty unlikely to matter much.

 

Why I prefer captain aura, only a little more expensive, get a much better beatstick, and (usually) reroll 1s and look for 3s.

Which is helpful for the biggest gun down to bolt pistol.

 

But they can do some solid work buffing some lascannons in the backfield, or overcharged plasma comboed with a captain.

 

Wish they could take a better weapon than a normal power weapon though.

Basically it's pay through the nose for 3 thunder hammer swings, take the poorer man's equivalent power fist, or just suck up the 1 damage without the penalty to hit and take a power sword.

Edited July 29, 2019 by The Unseen

[Sword Brother Adelard]

One indicator of their utility is the time I didn't take one, and spent the whole game wishing he was there!

[Panzer]

One indicator of their utility is the time I didn't take one, and spent the whole game wishing he was there!

 

That's just anecdotal. Likewise I had plenty games where I took one and he didn't contribute much at all.

[MARK0SIAN]

I agree with what has been said about them being a bit too expensive. However, I get added value out of mine as Crimson Fists can use the liberator strike force warlord trait and make an LT reroll 1s to hit as well as wound. It combines a captain and LT into one model so well worth the points in that case.

 

Overall I’d say they’re worth it if you’re castling up or playing a gun line, if you’re more mobile/spread out they lose value.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, they're good ways to represent sub-company level strike force commanders or veteran sergeants given control of multiple squads. Pretty invaluable addition to the marine lore. They were always there, but couldn't really be represented on the table. 

[Lemondish]

Why I prefer captain aura, only a little more expensive, get a much better beatstick, and (usually) reroll 1s and look for 3s.

Which is helpful for the biggest gun down to bolt pistol.

 

I hear you here, but I want to point out a few issues with this comparison.

 

1. Multiple Captains provide diminishing returns from the aura because all it does is let you spread it out further, not apply it twice.

 

2. You often need to fit multiple HQs in a list anyway, so combined with the above it is worth considering the benefit of that second concurrent buff.

[Panzer]

I guess that's especially true for vanilla Marines. As Blood Angels player I'd rather take a Librarian instead. Either a Librarian Dread or Mephiston. And then there's the new Vanguard Librarian to be considered as well. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

I find a Lieutenant alongside a Dreadnought using Wisdom of the Ancients as a powerful boon to supporting units whilst a Captain goes to another part of the battlefield. Edited July 29, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Dracos]

 

Why I prefer captain aura, only a little more expensive, get a much better beatstick, and (usually) reroll 1s and look for 3s.

Which is helpful for the biggest gun down to bolt pistol.

I hear you here, but I want to point out a few issues with this comparison.

1. Multiple Captains provide diminishing returns from the aura because all it does is let you spread it out further, not apply it twice.

2. You often need to fit multiple HQs in a list anyway, so combined with the above it is worth considering the benefit of that second concurrent buff.

True enough but ... I can find plenty of work for two Captains. More than two HQ choices, then I start looking at other options. Expert Instructor seems like it is going to be a favorite Warlord choice. Mathematically rerolls to hit are just that much more important to me.

[Trevak Dal]

 

Why I prefer captain aura, only a little more expensive, get a much better beatstick, and (usually) reroll 1s and look for 3s.

Which is helpful for the biggest gun down to bolt pistol.

 

I hear you here, but I want to point out a few issues with this comparison.

 

1. Multiple Captains provide diminishing returns from the aura because all it does is let you spread it out further, not apply it twice.

 

2. You often need to fit multiple HQs in a list anyway, so combined with the above it is worth considering the benefit of that second concurrent buff.

It also feels...not in line with the background. It would be super odd for a chapter master (never mind Lord Regent of the Imperium) or multiple captains to be on the deck at the same time in the same place unless it was a major pitched offensive (Apocalypse).

[Lemondish]

 

 

Why I prefer captain aura, only a little more expensive, get a much better beatstick, and (usually) reroll 1s and look for 3s.

Which is helpful for the biggest gun down to bolt pistol.

I hear you here, but I want to point out a few issues with this comparison.

1. Multiple Captains provide diminishing returns from the aura because all it does is let you spread it out further, not apply it twice.

2. You often need to fit multiple HQs in a list anyway, so combined with the above it is worth considering the benefit of that second concurrent buff.

True enough but ... I can find plenty of work for two Captains. More than two HQ choices, then I start looking at other options. Expert Instructor seems like it is going to be a favorite Warlord choice. Mathematically rerolls to hit are just that much more important to me.

Certainly true. But I would never say anyone should choose a Lt over a Cap - just that together they are awesome for buffing things.

[The Unseen]

I would say it'd be pretty easy to say your 2nd captain is actually a senior lieutenant or something.

 

I find it much more difficult to swallow how custodes captains, Guilliman, and Cawl are in almost every fight that involves their factions at all.

 

I have a list that runs 2 captains, one who gets the black rage keyword and is a guided suicidal cruise missile in game, and another who focuses on buffing my gunlike like a sensible leader.

[Schlitzaf]

Give Liutanents of both stripes +1 attack. And they’ll be far better as melee combatants.