Should all the chapters be rolled into one codex?

[TiguriusX]

As a SW i think it would be beneficial from a rules and balance issue to have all marines under 1 book.

 

It appears when rules are made for marines nobody on the team remembers there are special codexes and fail follows. Every single primaris drop (like recent repulsor executioner) has to be followed with an errata saying oops ya all the special chapters get it too.

 

 

SW codex drop was a disaster IMHO. They basically held back a vanilla marine codex just to fill the release schedule. Then they had a last minute realization SW players might notice and changed our WL traits but failed to get it in the print edition. SW players went an entire year with no stratagems for no legitimate reason and basically could not join in the resurgent tournament scene 8th edition created.

 

Dont even get me started on the unique units the game rules team dont seem to be aware of like SW scouts who take an elite slot but dont know how to infiltrate. Board control and CP generation are what make vanilla scouts worth taking. Elite SW scouts dont do either of those.

 

Many of the unique units in special marine codexes are basically vestigial organs with no purpose because they are out of sight and out of mind of the vanilla marine rules team.

 

The loss of fluff and lore for a chapter is a valid argument against this idea though.

 

Would an index astartes basically repeat the problem of unique units being overlooked because once again found in a separate book...or would 2 books be easier to keep track of for the rules team

Edited August 1, 2019 by TiguriusX

[Marshal Rohr]

As a SW i think it would be beneficial from a rules and balance issue to have all marines under 1 book.

 

It appears when rules are made for marines nobody on the team remembers there are special codexes and fail follows. Every single primaris drop (like recent repulsor executioner) has to be followed with an errata saying oops ya all the special chapters get it too.

 

 

SW codex drop was a disaster IMHO. They basically held back a vanilla marine codex just to fill the release schedule. Then they had a last minute realization SW players might notice and changed our WL traits but failed to get it in the print edition. SW players went an entire year with no stratagems for no legitimate reason and basically could not join in the resurgent tournament scene 8th edition created.

 

Dont even get me started on the unique units the game rules team dont seem to be aware of like SW scouts who take an elite slot but dont know how to infiltrate. Board control and CP generation are what make vanilla scouts worth taking. Elite SW scouts dont do either of those.

 

Many of the unique units in special marine codexes are basically vestigial organs with no purpose because they are out of sight and out of mind of the vanilla marine rules team.

 

The loss of fluff and lore for a chapter is a valid argument against this idea though.

 

Would an index astartes basically repeat the problem of unique units being overlooked because once again found in a separate book...or would 2 books be easier to keep track of for the rules team

 

Two books is easier to keep track of because Space Wolves are reduced from a bunch of special units to Wulfen, Thunderwolves, and HQs. Dark Angels go down to Deathwing Knights/Terminators, Ravenwing Knights/Bikers, The speeder, the Nephilim, and HQs. Blood Angels become Death Company/Psychic Dreads/Sanguinary Guard and HQs. Everything else Just becomes the Codex SM entry + Chapter Special Rules.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Robbienw]

If it were up to me there would be more, one codex for each first founding chapter (which is also used for successors of the same gene line), one for DW, one for GK, and then several independent codices for chapters that diverge heavily like the BT :D

[Sete]

Yeah but BT aren't as widely poplar as the other non codex marines :lol:

I will disagree. Easily as popular as DA even without the range support.

And way more popular than UM. ;)

Edited August 1, 2019 by Sete

[Marshal Vespasian]

The question is: what is the point of having chapters that diverge heavily from the codex if you streamline them to just be x colour ultramarines with a nice to have (at best) special rule.

Same for primaris there is no point in writing lore about how hard it is for primaris to be integeated into their new chapters if they just get used as was intended and there is no adaptation happening on either side.

Why have Salamanders primaris that cant use flamers? Why have space wolves primaris without proper melee.

Why even play an iron hands primaris army of I have no official Support to make them look the part.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Marshal Vespasian

[Robbienw]

 

Yeah but BT aren't as widely poplar as the other non codex marines :lol:

I will disagree. Easily as popular as DA even without the range support.

And way more popular than UM. ;)

I’ll agree 100% on the way more popular than than UM :D

Edited August 1, 2019 by Robbienw

[Marshal Rohr]

The question is: what is the point of having chapters that diverge heavily from the codex if you streamline them to just be x colour ultramarines with a nice to have (at best) special rule.

Same for primaris there is no point in writing lore about how hard it is for primaris to be integeated into their new chapters if they just get used as was intended and there is no adaptation happening on either side.

Why have Salamanders primaris that cant use flamers? Why have space wolves primaris without proper melee.

Why even play an iron hands primaris army of I have no official Support to make them look the part.

The playstyle between Raven Guard and Iron Warriors is night and day different than the playstyle of Ultramarines and Black Templars right now. The Heresy model for books and army lists is not an idea that be written off as limiting in any sense.

[Trevak Dal]

I mean...they did a good enough job with legions giving each legion variant units and the core ability of just about every legion being able to play any rite of war (aside from legion and faction specific rites of war).

[Ishagu]

Going back to my previous post, it really depends on what GW choses to do with Primaris.

 

If they include the classic range in the next Astartes book then I don't feel they should roll all the chapters into one as the book would be too big and unwieldy.

 

If the next codex is focused around Primaris, provided that they support all the chapters properly, then I believe it would be a great opportunity to consolidate the books into one. It would require some significant expansion of rules and a substantial model release to accomplish in a satisfying manner that respects each chapter.

What I mean by this:

 

-Chapters to receive a unique HQ and Infantry/Vehicle unit. Some chapters need multiples. Should Ultras get Primaris Tigurius? Absolutely, but BA would need a new Dante and Mephiston, DA would need an Azrael and Belial, SW would need a few characters, the same for BT, RG, WS, etc

Certain chapters would require a unique unit or two to keep them more distinctive, eg: Deathwing Gravis Veterans for DA, Inceptor Honour Guard for BA, Sword Brethren for BT, etc

 

-Updated, Expanded and Improved Chapter tactics. Each chapter really needs to be distinctive and this can have a big impact. Extend them to all units, and make a two tier rule system - one for general units, the other for vehicles.

 

-Updated, Expanded and Improved Stratagems. Lots of new strats are needed that have as much impact as those found in books like Imperial Knights, Orks GSC, etc. We would also need lots of Chapter specific ones that are built around the themes of each chapter.

 

-Multiple Psychic Disciplines, some unique to certain chapters, improved powers on par with those available to Eldar, GSC, Chaos factions, etc

 

-Sufficient lore for the chapter histories and the current setting.

 

Why would consolidation be a good thing? It's more efficient, streamlined, and better for the players.

Any rule update automatically applies to all chapters. Any generic new unit is immediately unlocked to all chapters. Any new codex simultaneously updates all chapters.

 

I think the Primaris update is a prime opportunity to do this, and if done correctly it will be best for everyone. This risk is that without sufficient model, rule, strat and lore support the chapters will become less distinctive or enticing for their fans.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ishagu

[MARK0SIAN]

Forgeworld did a great job with the heresy. However, each Legion required large campaign books to fill in all their lore/background. Now this works for the heresy because there is one joint narrative to tell in the game and the history is only a few hundred years, that is not the case for 40K.

 

To do the chapters justice you’d need a similarly sized additional book for each chapter. It would essentially be a codex sized book that omitted the shared units. At the very least, people would now need to buy two books where previously they only had to buy one.

 

I believe the Heresy model is a great model but it is only appropriate for the structure of the heresy game. The structure of standard 40k is too different for it to be an efficient system. For a start, there’s a lot of non-marine factions who could rightly complain about all this additional time/focus/manpower that was being devoted to each chapter.

Edited August 1, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Biscuittzz]

It's taken FW 7 years since Betrayal was released and however long it was in the works beforehand to get 18 different legions. That was under the stewardship of Alan Bligh too. We're expecting GW to manage the same in how long?

 

Not to mention HH black books were releasing rules and rites of war for units that didn't or still don't have models (cough Alvarex Maun). That's not going to fly with the 'no model, no rules' philosophy nowadays.

[Ishagu]

Well, GW are already churning out codex books and unit releases much faster than FW ever did.

[Captain Idaho]

I think new and original Primaris characters should be made personally. Rather than rehashing old characters. Edited August 1, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Biscuittzz]

Well, GW are already churning out codex books and unit releases much faster than FW ever did.

 

That isn't exactly a good thing. And they can't hold a candle to a single black book. They had the audacity to suggest the Vigilus books would be in the same vein as a black book. I guess the paper comes from trees.

 

I'll happily stand corrected but I can't see GW releasing any sort of large primaris model range for the divergent chapters - one unit each perhaps as you've said or a special character but that imo does nothing to differentiate the chapters. Getting a special BA inceptor will just make them red ultramarines + a special inceptor unit.

 

Blood Angels will always be sanguinary guard, death company, furiosos, corbulo, mephiston etc. I can't see how they replicate all of that in primaris scale. I'd love if they do. They'll be seriously shooting themselves in the foot if they sideline the old ranges too fast.

 

Similar sentiment for what make wolves and templars what they are. 

[Ishagu]

Well, the black books have wonderful imagery and lore but were also quite poor in terms of rule balancing, and cost significantly more than a GW codex.

I was a devout HH player and it wasn't some perfect utopia of rules. It took FW 3 or 4 years just to update Justaerin Terminators into something that wasn't useless, whilst newer Legions and factions were more and more powerful, culminating in Custodes, Thousand Sons and Mechanicum which at a point were far stronger than the average Legion. The Legion disparity wasn't something I could easily overlook as they are all incredibly similar save 3/4 unique units.

 

As for chapter units, the ones you listed will eventually have to be replaced. Maybe for something similar, maybe for something very different. We're certainly in the process of a vast update that may well take years more to complete...

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Well, GW are already churning out codex books and unit releases much faster than FW ever did.

That isn't exactly a good thing. And they can't hold a candle to a single black book. They had the audacity to suggest the Vigilus books would be in the same vein as a black book. I guess the paper comes from trees.

 

I'll happily stand corrected but I can't see GW releasing any sort of large primaris model range for the divergent chapters - one unit each perhaps as you've said or a special character but that imo does nothing to differentiate the chapters. Getting a special BA inceptor will just make them red ultramarines + a special inceptor unit.

 

Blood Angels will always be sanguinary guard, death company, furiosos, corbulo, mephiston etc. I can't see how they replicate all of that in primaris scale. I'd love if they do. They'll be seriously shooting themselves in the foot if they sideline the old ranges too fast.

 

Similar sentiment for what make wolves and templars what they are.

Vigilus book was frankly no worse than book 8 of the black books. Without bligh they are significantly poorer.

[Biscuittzz]

Well, the black books have wonderful imagery and lore but were also quite poor in terms of rule balancing, and cost significantly more than a GW codex.

I was a devout HH player and it wasn't some perfect utopia of rules. It took FW 3 or 4 years just to update Justaerin Terminators into something that wasn't useless, whilst newer Legions and factions were more and more powerful, culminating in Custodes, Thousand Sons and Mechanicum which at a point were far stronger than the average Legion. The Legion disparity wasn't something I could easily overlook as they are all incredibly similar save 3/4 unique units.

 

As for chapter units, the ones you listed will eventually have to be replaced. Maybe for something similar, maybe for something very different. We're certainly in the process of a vast update that may well take years more to complete...

 

I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of talking balance and yes the black books were horrendously unbalanced/updated at times. So I'm not disputing that fact with you. What I'm saying is that regardless of the balance issues, it still took a lot of time to get real differentiation across the legions.

 

I agree fully with your last point but as I've said GW can't afford to push aside the originals (which is what is happening right now) just yet because as you said the update to Primaris could take years. Players aren't going to want to play their divergent chapters unless they can take the special units which make them different. Can GW make them different in the lore and continue writing about them? Yes, but unless players can put those special characters and models on the table they'll slowly stop playing.

 

Raven Guard are my HH legion yet I barely want to play them in 40k, -1 to hit is nothing flavour wise compared to running decapitation strike. I feel I'm just running black UM with a nice bonus. 

 

Vigilus book was frankly no worse than book 8 of the black books. Without bligh they are significantly poorer.

 

 

I'll give you that Book 8 was the worst of the HH series so far but that's an almighty stretch to say Vigilus was not worse. 

[Lemondish]

I think new and original Primaris characters should be made personally. Rather than rehashing old characters.

I'd agree with this. But I also want an update - only have one for my Chapter anyway.

[Ishagu]

No doubt that GW need to give more flavour to all the chapters. It remains to be seen just how much they can support each one. Either way we'll know what path they've chosen this Saturday, hopefully. It feels like a while away lol

 

 

I think new and original Primaris characters should be made personally. Rather than rehashing old characters.

I'd agree with this. But I also want an update - only have one for my Chapter anyway.

New characters are always welcome but GW won't be able to move on from legends like Dante, Azrael or Helbrecht. It would take 20 years of lore to build up someone new who could replace them.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ishagu

[Biscuittzz]

A good start would be giving first founding chapters perhaps 4/5 strategems as you've said. We've already seen it made possible with the Vigilus books. They would just need to be aimed at specific things in my opinion other than Primaris. E.g. RG strat for assault marines, vanguard, scouts......something for dreads and tanks for IH. 

[Marshal Vespasian]

Raven Guard are my HH legion yet I barely want to play them in 40k, -1 to hit is nothing flavour wise compared to running decapitation strike. I feel I'm just running black UM with a nice bonus.

That is the point I was trying to make. I am not against the HH way of doing rules. I dont actually know how it works having never played the game, but the heresy guys seem to be having a blast so something must be going well.

 

But in 40k for chapters that dont habe their own codex all distinction is gone. I can remember templars having their own codex and being distinct.

If sw, na and da got rolled into the codex the same would happen to them.

And that is actually my Main gripe with primaris. I love the aesthetic of a lot of the stuff, but at the end they will play the same no matter what colour I paint them in.

[Ishagu]

A good start would be giving first founding chapters perhaps 4/5 strategems as you've said. We've already seen it made possible with the Vigilus books. They would just need to be aimed at specific things in my opinion other than Primaris. E.g. RG strat for assault marines, vanguard, scouts......something for dreads and tanks for IH.

I think every chapter deserves a full page of unique strats, and another for unique Warlord traits and relics!

 

As for the concern of others about Primaris not being distinctive enough - I'll have to agree. They can't match what 20+ years of releases have accomplished for the various chapters in 2/3. They can make a solid start with a strong and varied set of releases however.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ishagu

[Biscuittzz]

I think new and original Primaris characters should be made personally. Rather than rehashing old characters.

 

GW won't throw away years of lore on characters for new ones that people have no attachment too. BA/DA won't appreciate Dante and Azrael disappearing for a no-name primaris captain equivalent.

 

Edit: Looks like Ishagu beat me too saying the exact same thing. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Biscuittzz

[Triszin]

My personal view is that I think they can drop it to 2 books.

 

1. Codex: Compliant ( everyone in the current space marines proper book)

 

2. Codex: Non-Compliant (wolves, ba, da, and others space sharks, and so on)

 

 

I think this might be the best outcome for for everyone. two BIG books.

 

But, that isn't happening.

 

We DONT need 5 pages of wolf guard selections, at most 2, condensed.

 

 

The Big 3 + 1 that covers how everyone else follows is as is.

 

 

However I think GW would be smart to launch the codexes for BA, DA, and SW at the same time. Treat it like 1 release. but its 3.

[Marshal Rohr]

Bad faith and off topic arguments about Forge World’s update speed and balancing issues have no bearing on whether or not the Master List and Index model is better given that:

-Forge World wouldn’t be producing them

-The Rules produced would be made by the 40k Studio

-The pages of a black book dedicated to legion lore are only a small fraction of the page count

-Most Black Books are half given over to campaign systems, new rules for all armies, and a lengthy lore section on the topic of the Black Book that wouldn’t be included in the Master List + Index model

-Most Codex Space Marine datasheets can be consolidated into a single unit entry. The HQs are the worst offenders.

 

So any argument hinging on any of those factors is irrelevant to the Core List + Index book model. The simple truth of it is the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves at most have around 3 to 4 units that can’t be represented by expanded Chapter Rules. Cap the Index book to 12-15 pages for the Big 4 and First Founding, including their Lore and Special Rules, and you’ve got a damn fine Index army book. If anything Games Workshop should be launching a range of non-gaming material source books for chapters and factions in the universe that are filled with a hundred of pages of maps, and diagrams, and timelines, and art for the chapters of renown.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Marshal Rohr