New Angels of Death rule and Deathwatch

[Finkmilkana]

Do the changes to the Auto Bolt Rile and the Stalker Bolt Rifle now make them worth running over the normal bolt rifle on the Intercessors?

 

I normally run 2 squads of 5 Intercessors and 5 Hellblasters and then the third squad has some Aggressors. So far they all just had the basic bolt rifles but with the change I am thinking of having one squad going stalker and heavy plasma and for the squad with Aggressors to go auto bolt.

 

I was hoping we get all the new Phobos armour units; they have the special sorces feel, which is exactly what Deathwatch are.

The auto bolt rifle is now almost always the than the normal one, doubly so for DW who have neither access to bolter discipline with SIA nor the RF4 stratagem.

The stalker is still kinda bad for DW, since we don’t have the sniper stratagem. It’s better than the auto against heavily armored multi wound models (centurions etc) though.

[Sea-People]

As far as bolt rifle variants are concerned, I think this is how it goes:

 

Are your intercessors ablative wounds for hellblasters? Take standard rifles.

 

Do you have lots of aggressors and/or inceptors in your squad? Take Auto bolt rifles.

 

Did you build them wrong and/or want a backfield camper to fill out a battalion? Take Stalker rifles.

 

 

I have a feeling Auto bolt rifles are going to become the primaris storm bolter.

[GrinNfool]

 

 

Not sure I understand the point of this post?  You quoted something some 1 is happy about, and then spoke like it was a complaint, offering the "trade" of 40 point thunder hammers for... 2 mediocre weapon options you phrase as though they are the best thing ever.  Most deathwatch lists don't run either of those, or maybe one lol.  I mean if you are gonna do that at least grab our frag cannons, or storm shield access, those are the things in our army that are actually good lol.

 

"Mediocre"?

 

Please, most of SM lists would kill for access to melta fists, especially in edition where shooting is king, not melee. You pay for extra gun no other SM book can get with slight melee damage decrease (that could be mitigated with stratagems and traits) and greatly increase point efficiency spent on high BS marines have, vastly greater benefit than taking a single HQ TH in a list that lacks smash captain builds. Gee, I wonder why anyone would prefer both fluffy and synergistic weapon over trying to cram wannabe BA knockoff into army that lacks every single thing that makes it work?

 

And yeah, you only run 'one' because it's hardly available on anything. Give sarges and vanguard access to it then we can talk how often it is taken.

 

I don't see the marine community at large falling over themselves for 50 point terminators.  The fact that DW has them and you only see them occasionally should be a hint on that.  Don't see people going nuts for 6 point power swords either.  Its an ok option if you don't have the points to buy a T.hammer for your cpt but... again you don't see people run them very often.  I have 1 xenophase blade, and I am the only person I have ever seen run it, and I just bring it to save on points generally.

[Mobius0288]

 

Assault Bolters are for the teams that keep moving up the board. These are the ones that will probably never stop moving or last long enough to stay still for the rapid fire trait to work.

 

 

They could probably fill in for normal bolt rifles depending on play style, especially if you have aggressors in the squad. Advance and shoot without penalty, or sit camp a mid field objectives and shoot twice with your aggressors.

 

I'll definitely be running a couple of them... I'm feeling 1-2 vet mixed kill teams, 2 assault kill teams with aggressors, and a hellblaster kill team. Made my vet kill teams a bit CC oriented, hoping to give my auto bolters a chance at living.... or at least keep pace and be supported with my fast assault (bikers, pod, etc.)

[Calbanite]

Auto Bolt Rifles are strictly better than all weapon options. Only falling behind SLIGHTLY to Stombolters firing Vengeance rounds at double tap range. I can link the math hammer later if you'd like. I haven't done the numbers with the different flavors of rerolls honestly, but the math should be the same across the board and not change much.

Regular Bolt Rifles are hot garbage since the slight range advantage is negated by the ability to advance a d6 plus shoot without penalty... if you take an Agressor. Which you should always take an Agressor + Inceptor in my book, because a huge pile of assault weapons running around the board is too good to pass up.

I still think Storm Shield + Storm Bolter vets w/ Terminator + Vanguard + Frag Cannons will pull more weight than a Fortis Kill team, but you will have to drop them into the thick of it. 3++ is nice, but weight of fire at range will kill them too quickly imo.

I have to rework my lists to factor in Drop Pod T1, but having our Teleporting Fortis/Dreads coming in T2 anyway it might not change much.

[Mr4Minutes]

I agree with that. I’m planning at least one 5 int, 4 agg, 1 inc squad. It’s a shame our chappy’s don’t get litanies because I was looking forward to one following these guys around.

[Finkmilkana]

Auto Bolt Rifles are strictly better than all weapon options. Only falling behind SLIGHTLY to Stombolters firing Vengeance rounds at double tap range. I can link the math hammer later if you'd like. I haven't done the numbers with the different flavors of rerolls honestly, but the math should be the same across the board and not change much.

 

Shouldn’t Stormbolters (in double tap) always be exactly 33.3..% better than auto bolt rifles, independent of the ammunition? They have the exact same profile, only difference is 4 shots vs 3 shots.

[Black Knight]

 

Auto Bolt Rifles are strictly better than all weapon options. Only falling behind SLIGHTLY to Stombolters firing Vengeance rounds at double tap range. I can link the math hammer later if you'd like. I haven't done the numbers with the different flavors of rerolls honestly, but the math should be the same across the board and not change much.

Shouldn’t Stormbolters (in double tap) always be exactly 33.3..% better than auto bolt rifles, independent of the ammunition? They have the exact same profile, only difference is 4 shots vs 3 shots.

 

 

They are Rapid Fire not Assault weapons. That muddies the water quite a bit. So you cannot advance and fire.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Black_Knight

[Finkmilkana]

They are Rapid Fire not Assault weapons. That muddies the water quite a bit. So you cannot advance and fire.

Yeah, but that is independent of the raw damage comparison (considering the SB was assumed to be in rapid fire range). On the table they both shine in different circumstances.

[Mobius0288]

Fortunately, everything will have its place and can be enhanced based on your play style. If you like starting on the board and advancing, you're gonna want to go with auto bolters with aggressors. If you want a decently survivable kill team, you're gonna want to load up a max sized unit of vets with termies and a vanguard veteran.

 

(Total) Point costs, range of the engagement and what you target should be considered as well.

[Calbanite]

True. The SB's should be doing a flat 33% more wounds based on the extra volume of shots per trooper. I should have clarified.

The points investment to safely transport the Vet squads into Double Tap range and overall lack of mobility/range is the deciding factor for me.

Everyone will weight those points investments differently, but it's a fact that you need to be in Double Tap range to make your points back with Vets. And to have them get their requires a non-trival points investment as opposed to a general purpose, tough, and mobile Fortis team.

Even if you pod in T1 with Vets, you can't double tap with Vengeance which cuts their offensive power quite a bit, and leaves them to die. Personally I've been heavily leveraging the ability to DS a Rapid Fire Fortis team, Vet Team, and Leviathan while podding in Aura Support for a big turn 2 punch. But that is all for the tactics page...

[angrom]

Related to the topic I guess but how many autoboltrifles is there in an intercessor box?

[Black Knight]

10 i think, same with each variant.

[Stargate_wars]

Related to the topic I guess but how many autoboltrifles is there in an intercessor box?

 A total of 10 can be assembled as auto bolt rifles due to only 10 auto clips with 2 additional prebuilt in a 10 man box. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Stargate_wars

[Calbanite]

So I've got a super beard-y question that I want to ask you all. Probably gonna get yelled at because this is purely RAW vs RAI and a power gamer move.

With the new Errata, GW said to replace all instances in their respective codex:

CODEX: BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, SPACE WOLVES AND DEATHWATCH Codex: Space Marines has updated certain datasheets. The following updates apply to the appropriate weapons and units in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Deathwatch. Note that these updates are in addition to gaining the Bolter Discipline ability, as described in a previous update. The changes are listed below:

Aggressors, Firestorm Change this ability to read: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.

So here we have the new and improved Firestorm ability. Now it says "models" in this unit can fire twice if stationary instead of "Agressors" in this unit.

Well... Fortis teams that add an Agressor gain the Firestorm ability. I'm just gonna leave that out there for ya'll to discuss, because me double tapping with an ENTIRE Fortis team full of Hellblasters and Auto Bolt Rifles sounds like a good present from GW's terrible rules writing department.

[Mr4Minutes]

Hmm. At work so I don’t have my codex to look at, but that looks like RAW. The only thing I could think of is if it’s written differently on the Fortis kill team data sheet then it is on the aggressor one.

 

30 SIA shots out of 5 auto bolt rifles sounds like too much cheese to pass up on. At least until they faq it.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Mr4Minutes

[GrinNfool]

So I've got a super beard-y question that I want to ask you all. Probably gonna get yelled at because this is purely RAW vs RAI and a power gamer move.

 

With the new Errata, GW said to replace all instances in their respective codex:

 

CODEX: BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, SPACE WOLVES AND DEATHWATCH Codex: Space Marines has updated certain datasheets. The following updates apply to the appropriate weapons and units in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Deathwatch. Note that these updates are in addition to gaining the Bolter Discipline ability, as described in a previous update. The changes are listed below:

 

Aggressors, Firestorm Change this ability to read: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.

 

So here we have the new and improved Firestorm ability. Now it says "models" in this unit can fire twice if stationary instead of "Agressors" in this unit.

 

Well... Fortis teams that add an Agressor gain the Firestorm ability. I'm just gonna leave that out there for ya'll to discuss, because me double tapping with an ENTIRE Fortis team full of Hellblasters and Auto Bolt Rifles sounds like a good present from GW's terrible rules writing department.

So I saw that too a few days ago and just ignored it, because our book is written the same way.  On the aggressors page it says "models in this unit" and on the intercessor page it says "aggressors in this unit"  The intent is clear with that.  That said... RAW you can technically fire everything twice since errata says all instances.  Just know you are totally being WAAC That guy if you do this, as the RAI is pretty obvious from the way our codex is worded differently.

 

Edit: also you know if they FAQ this they are going to be stupid and say "except on the intercessors page" which will just get all the jack offs to scream now "aggressors in a fortis can't fire OW twice!" just like some idiots tried to do with BD faq meaning SIA can never double tap.  Best to leave this 1 alone, and hope it doesn't become a problem

Edited August 22, 2019 by GrinNfool

[Black Knight]

With that RAW did anyone think about taking one Aggressor and the rest Hellblasters in the Team :S thats just nasty.

[Mr4Minutes]

Reading the Codex, we don’t get the “Firestorm” override.

 

Our Aggressor Data sheet has “Fire Storm” which benefits the entire unit.

 

Our Intercessor Data sheet has “Fire Storm” which only benefits Aggressor models.

 

Rules as Written they are two different rules. They have similar names and similar effects, but RAW, are not the same.

 

Edit: this is supposed to be said more in jest then serious. Not intended as fighting words. Just found it funny how the rules interactions get off when they are only partially updated.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Mr4Minutes

[Stargate_wars]

So I've got a super beard-y question that I want to ask you all. Probably gonna get yelled at because this is purely RAW vs RAI and a power gamer move.

With the new Errata, GW said to replace all instances in their respective codex:

CODEX: BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, SPACE WOLVES AND DEATHWATCH Codex: Space Marines has updated certain datasheets. The following updates apply to the appropriate weapons and units in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Deathwatch. Note that these updates are in addition to gaining the Bolter Discipline ability, as described in a previous update. The changes are listed below:Aggressors, Firestorm Change this ability to read: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.

So here we have the new and improved Firestorm ability. Now it says "models" in this unit can fire twice if stationary instead of "Agressors" in this unit.

Well... Fortis teams that add an Agressor gain the Firestorm ability. I'm just gonna leave that out there for ya'll to discuss, because me double tapping with an ENTIRE Fortis team full of Hellblasters and Auto Bolt Rifles sounds like a good present from GW's terrible rules writing department.

The Firestorm update ONLY Applies to the Aggressor units in each codex.

[Mobius0288]

 

So I've got a super beard-y question that I want to ask you all. Probably gonna get yelled at because this is purely RAW vs RAI and a power gamer move.

With the new Errata, GW said to replace all instances in their respective codex:

CODEX: BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, SPACE WOLVES AND DEATHWATCH Codex: Space Marines has updated certain datasheets. The following updates apply to the appropriate weapons and units in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Deathwatch. Note that these updates are in addition to gaining the Bolter Discipline ability, as described in a previous update. The changes are listed below:Aggressors, Firestorm Change this ability to read: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.

So here we have the new and improved Firestorm ability. Now it says "models" in this unit can fire twice if stationary instead of "Agressors" in this unit.

Well... Fortis teams that add an Agressor gain the Firestorm ability. I'm just gonna leave that out there for ya'll to discuss, because me double tapping with an ENTIRE Fortis team full of Hellblasters and Auto Bolt Rifles sounds like a good present from GW's terrible rules writing department.

The Firestorm update ONLY Applies to the Aggressor units in each codex.

 

 

I would also agree that RAW, it will only apply to Agressor units not the "Intercessors" with an Aggressor model. Intercessors have their own rules depending on the model added. Similar to when you add an Inceptor, they don't actually get the fly keyword... they just have the fly ability per the intercessor datasheet.

[Lemondish]

Whenever these units are compared, I feel like we aren't being truly honest about what's being compared. After all, auto bolt rifles do shoot one less shot than storm bolters...

 

But the Aggressors aren't going to be standing still either. SIA or otherwise, that's some nice dakka. So are we comparing only auto bolt rifle Intercessors against only Storm Bolter Veterans, or are we tooling those units out to have all the special abilities they need? I imagine the latter is key.

 

So let's begin with a simple comparison of a Vet squad at around 220 - 230ish points with a black shield and sarge carrying a power weapon like mauls or just running shields of their own, two terminators, and the rest carrying storm shields with everybody clutching a storm bolter. There are a few variations of this build, but it's mostly this baseline. 36 to 40 storm bolter rapid fire SIA shots (depending on if you've committed to a VV), but they need delivery to get into range.

 

For about a 60 point premium a unit of 5 Intercessors with autos, 4 Aggressors, and 1 Inceptor just blow these dudes away now. These guys are killier than the vet squad when moving and downright filthy if stationary. Now with 25 T5 3+ wounds in a single unit and way more of a hidden melee threat than Vets ever could be with 16 power fist attacks on the charge from the Aggressors alone (could add 4 more by giving the sarge one for another 9 points), and 15 s4 ap - attacks to go along with it. And this is all while keeping an Inceptor involved for the fall back and shoot capability. 

 

And by downright filthy stationary, I mean one of these units with the proper mission tactic applied near a Chapter Master and benefiting from a +1 to wound Doctrine with Aggressors able to fire twice will kill a T7 vehicle and a half in the shooting phase. Across both phases you could seriously batter a Knight with just ONE of these units, though that comes with a hefty CP expenditure across that turn.  

 

I am building 2 more such units to go with the one I've already loved for months. 

 

2 wound Primaris might be pretty easy for some forces to handle. But can they handle literally 75 T5 2+ in cover obsec wounds where half of the unit is 3 wound models that will render those 2 damage weapons much, much less effective? 

 

I predict this will be the next major boogieman for DW. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lemondish

[Trollbeard]

Primaris marines don’t have access to the storm shield though, and depending on your meta that’s huge. I regularly face DE, Tau and DA, and these armies can bring lots of firepower that’s really good at killing primaris. I’ve had fortis kill teams gutted 1st turn by DE ravagers loaded with disintegrator cannons even in cover, sure the aggressors have 3 wounds now, but I’m not convinced it’s that helpful in this case. And if the main thing about the aggressor is to prevent the penalty for advancing and firing he won’t get to double tap too often I would think.

[GrinNfool]

DE, and DA understandable, confused by you saying tau though.

 

Primaris marines don’t have access to the storm shield though, and depending on your meta that’s huge. I regularly face DE, Tau and DA, and these armies can bring lots of firepower that’s really good at killing primaris. I’ve had fortis kill teams gutted 1st turn by DE ravagers loaded with disintegrator cannons even in cover, sure the aggressors have 3 wounds now, but I’m not convinced it’s that helpful in this case. And if the main thing about the aggressor is to prevent the penalty for advancing and firing he won’t get to double tap too often I would think.

Eh of those DE is certainly the biggest threat, DA going lots of plasma BK's would be the only real concern vs them.  Honestly surprised you said tau when talking about primaris.  SS vet is barely more survivable than a primaris, vs either missile pod variety.  AP-1 and d3 damage kinda offeset, as a 33% chance the primaris lives after failing a 4+ and a SS/SB vet dies failing a 3++.   The SS vets odds are .4% better to survive, thats pretty insignificant, as most of the rest of tau shooting is low ap, 1 damage shots, which the primaris are much better for.  I love fielding primaris vs tau, they don't have that much multi damage weaponry, and most of it is low ap.  Fusions and missile pods and riptides is about it, Even a nova'd riptide w/ hvy burst isn't a big difference here.  It kills 1 more primaris than vet, considering the cost a SS/SB vet is 1 more ppm than a autobolt intercessor, not a big difference.  You lose 17 more points per 250+ point model shooting at you.  I think the advantage they gain vs the Tau's bulk firing of s5 ap-0 is far greater.  10 FWs rapid fire equate to 2 dead SS/SB vets with 22% chance for another dead, or a 60% chance to kill 1 primaris (in the fortis set up w/ aggressors/inceptor).  Basically 40 point loss vs a 60% chance to lose 19 points per 20 s5 shots (which tau throw a lot of out there between SMS, pulse weapons, burst cannons, etc)  At worst vs tau I would say its a wash.

 

Though vs DE hell no, or plasma spam, SS way way better.  As most things where DW is concerned, what you should bring heavily depends on your local meta.  DW are extremely dependent on knowing the types of armies they will be fighting when creating a list. due to how kill team's list construction has to be done.

[Lemondish]

Primaris marines don’t have access to the storm shield though, and depending on your meta that’s huge. I regularly face DE, Tau and DA, and these armies can bring lots of firepower that’s really good at killing primaris. I’ve had fortis kill teams gutted 1st turn by DE ravagers loaded with disintegrator cannons even in cover, sure the aggressors have 3 wounds now, but I’m not convinced it’s that helpful in this case. And if the main thing about the aggressor is to prevent the penalty for advancing and firing he won’t get to double tap too often I would think.

 

Armies that bring lots of firepower that are really good at killing Primaris just took a nose dive in efficiency when facing 3 wound Aggressors and Inceptors. They now need twice as many unsaved wounds to kill the same number of Primaris models as they used to. That is immensely helpful. Especially if you go about swarming them with more than one of such units. I don't think there's a single DE list that can handle that many Primaris bodies before their fragile flyers are taken down. 

 

But I'd like to pull apart your assumption that the main reason you bring Aggressors is to remove the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons. That's but one of the benefits. This unit layers a ton of internal synergy that helps every model contribute so that the whole thing is much bigger. Aggressors in Codex units have always suffered from needing time to get into position before they can double shoot. They're now better at that, but it's still a real risk that the unit might be severely depleted or destroyed before they get an opportunity to blast away with fire storm. 

 

With this unit as Deathwatch, you can almost entirely eliminate that risk. The Intercessors provide 10 ablative wounds before your Aggressors have to start facing the music, which allows them to survive much longer and in turn means you can get into position to unload with the fire storm trait with full efficacy much more often. The Aggressors let those Intercessors contribute with SIA while moving into position, and the Inceptor helps maintain a full T5 unit (even for the Intercessors) with the ability to still fall back and shoot. 

 

So in short, the mobility is to get you where you need to be faster, whether that's to an objective or into a good position to trigger fire storm, while contributing without penalty from every model in the unit, and being a massively tough nut to crack with 25 T5 2+ wounds in cover needed to  chew through before they're removed. 

 

One of these - just like literally every unit in the entire game - can die to being focused down. There aren't any units for sub 300 points that will survive being focused heavily.

 

But more than one of these in action will force your opponent to decide, and that's why we bring more than one Vet squad to begin with.