Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

New Angels of Death rule and Deathwatch


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#51
Trollbeard

Trollbeard

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
Are the aggressors that effective with 4 in the squad? All their weaponry is str 4 0 ap? I know they get buckets of dice, but that’s it? I’ll admit I haven’t used a fortis team with 4 of them. I just got so turned off by them being deleted with ease in my meta that I needed to run Storm vets just to stick around.

These are some interesting points you guys have brought up. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Just seems like a waste to not use SIA to maximum potential.

I wonder if DW primaris will ever get stormshields going forward.

#52
GrinNfool

GrinNfool

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 188 posts
  • Location:Denver

Are the aggressors that effective with 4 in the squad? All their weaponry is str 4 0 ap? I know they get buckets of dice, but that’s it? I’ll admit I haven’t used a fortis team with 4 of them. I just got so turned off by them being deleted with ease in my meta that I needed to run Storm vets just to stick around.

These are some interesting points you guys have brought up. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Just seems like a waste to not use SIA to maximum potential.

I wonder if DW primaris will ever get stormshields going forward.

Eh I am not full gung ho on them like lemon is, and if you play against DE all the time, you are better off running SS vets not even close, I play DE too... so i know.  I just think you were selling them a little short.  As lemon said 25 t5 wounds is nothing to sneeze at.  Firepower wise assuming you are moving they aren't fantastic but not bad, averaging 38 s4 shots which is quite a reasonable weight of fire, even vs t5-t7 targets with 3+ save it will net 2.77 wounds (4.2 vs MEQ) those are after saves,  Squad still has 15 SIA shots and 6 s5 ap-1 shots to throw out too.  Gives the squad ~ 6.7 wounds vs MEQ @ 18"  getting to double tap obviously doubls what the aggressors put out, so around 9.4 wounds to MEQ for the squad.  Honestly though even with all that I still don't think I would have a good opinion of the squad were it not for 2 things.  The synergies given by fortis, and the 16 power fist attacks, on the first turn of combat.  The squad is an actual reasonable melee threat in addition to being a shooting threat.  Being a squad thats functional in 2 of the 3 phases of battle is what has got me to actually bother with them.  I don't expect that unit to necessarily kill its points back (it could but not likely) but I do expect the unit to draw fire, and a lot of it which should in turn protect the rest of my army. 

 

I kinda view them as a big distraction carni that can shoot too.  Sorta like when playing DE and you throw a 3 talos unit in the middle of the table, your opponent needs to deal with it, but its not super efficient to try to kill.  Obviously you're mileage may vary depending on your meta.  I'd suggest proxying the squad a couple times and seeing how you like it before investing in it.


Edited by GrinNfool, 24 August 2019 - 02:31 AM.


#53
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,243 posts

Are the aggressors that effective with 4 in the squad? All their weaponry is str 4 0 ap? I know they get buckets of dice, but that’s it? I’ll admit I haven’t used a fortis team with 4 of them. I just got so turned off by them being deleted with ease in my meta that I needed to run Storm vets just to stick around.

These are some interesting points you guys have brought up. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Just seems like a waste to not use SIA to maximum potential.

I wonder if DW primaris will ever get stormshields going forward.

 

Combined with the SIA from the auto bolters and the extra shots from the fragstorm, this unit causes more damage against any target than the 40 storm bolter shots from the vets even when on the move.

 

And they do significantly more when they're stationary camping an objective. 

 

And then they also do an amazing amount of damage in CC. 

 

The unit will even last longer on average against Dissy cannons than 1 wound SS vets will. They're pretty equally resilient against everything else, too. You'll lose those meat shields quicker, but it'll take twice as many unsaved wounds once they get to the Aggressors.

 

I'm not saying they're downright better than Vets - only that the decision is much harder to make now. Previously, it was no contest. 

 

Now that this unit has gained an extra shot per Intercessor and an extra wound and attack per Aggressor, along with an extra attack from shock assault, this type of in your face highly mobile, highly resilient unit can really do some work in both the shooting and combat phase at a greater range than Vets with much more mobility. 


Edited by Lemondish, 24 August 2019 - 03:49 AM.

  • Syward likes this

#54
GrinNfool

GrinNfool

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 188 posts
  • Location:Denver

 

Are the aggressors that effective with 4 in the squad? All their weaponry is str 4 0 ap? I know they get buckets of dice, but that’s it? I’ll admit I haven’t used a fortis team with 4 of them. I just got so turned off by them being deleted with ease in my meta that I needed to run Storm vets just to stick around.

These are some interesting points you guys have brought up. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Just seems like a waste to not use SIA to maximum potential.

I wonder if DW primaris will ever get stormshields going forward.

 

Combined with the SIA from the auto bolters and the extra shots from the fragstorm, this unit causes more damage against any target than the 40 storm bolter shots from the vets even when on the move.

 

And they do significantly more when they're stationary camping an objective. 

 

And then they also do an amazing amount of damage in CC. 

 

The unit will even last longer on average against Dissy cannons than 1 wound SS vets will. They're pretty equally resilient against everything else, too. You'll lose those meat shields quicker, but it'll take twice as many unsaved wounds once they get to the Aggressors.

 

I'm not saying they're downright better than Vets - only that the decision is much harder to make now. Previously, it was no contest. 

 

Now that this unit has gained an extra shot per Intercessor and an extra wound and attack per Aggressor, along with an extra attack from shock assault, this type of in your face highly mobile, highly resilient unit can really do some work in both the shooting and combat phase at a greater range than Vets with much more mobility. 

 

So... You gave some just straight untrue statements here man.  The dissie one specificically,The t5 fortis team requires ~54 dissie shots (s5 ap-3 2 damage)    That number of shots vs t4 3++ only kills 8 of the marines on avg, meaning 2 are still alive.  54 dissie shots are the equivalent of 6 ravagers worth (which you can't bring obviously) so thats still a lot of shots in fairness, and 3 dissie ravs clock in at 375 points, so devoting 2 rounds of firepower to kill a 288 point squad fully isn't exactly the worst. 

 

Also your statement about more damage apart from vets is only... somewhat true when only looking at bolt weapons, due to how DW works.  For the price of the fortis kill team you could drop 10 plasma/SS vets in rapid fire range, which far exceeds the firepower of either the SS/SB or primaris squad, while having the 3++ surv.  A 5 man squad with 3 SBs 2 frags can kill ~ 7 MEQ, for less than half the cost.  Firepower is no way the point of this squad as DW just has better options pure and simple, its not even close.  For 286 points you can fortis out 5 int w/ auto 4 hellblasters and a inceptor w/ plasma ~8 wounds avg or w/ over charging 9.4 w/ and 12-14 damage (from plasma part alone).  DW just has much much better options for dealing damage, at that point level.  Granted if we they are getting firestorm they do put out good damage, and of course vs GEQ or ork boys type stuff they are very solid as well.

 

The entire point of this squad to me is survivable toolkit squad that can do ok damage, be mobile, draw fire, sit and hold an objective mid table, fight off vehicles mid table in melee, or just push into an enemy tank line.  The fact the squad can reasonably fill all of those roles is what gives the squad value to me.  DW have needed a toolkit squad for a while, and this fills the role in a reasonable way.  DW strength (specialization) has always also been one of their biggest weaknesses.  Just having a catch all do everything squad is just nice for me.  Again though i can't stress this enough, if you play vs DE a lot, primaris in general are bad, even with 3 wound aggressors.  Outside of DE, or plasma spam though they are reasonable choices.



#55
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,243 posts

 

 

Are the aggressors that effective with 4 in the squad? All their weaponry is str 4 0 ap? I know they get buckets of dice, but that’s it? I’ll admit I haven’t used a fortis team with 4 of them. I just got so turned off by them being deleted with ease in my meta that I needed to run Storm vets just to stick around.

These are some interesting points you guys have brought up. Maybe I’ll give it another shot. Just seems like a waste to not use SIA to maximum potential.

I wonder if DW primaris will ever get stormshields going forward.

 

Combined with the SIA from the auto bolters and the extra shots from the fragstorm, this unit causes more damage against any target than the 40 storm bolter shots from the vets even when on the move.

 

And they do significantly more when they're stationary camping an objective. 

 

And then they also do an amazing amount of damage in CC. 

 

The unit will even last longer on average against Dissy cannons than 1 wound SS vets will. They're pretty equally resilient against everything else, too. You'll lose those meat shields quicker, but it'll take twice as many unsaved wounds once they get to the Aggressors.

 

I'm not saying they're downright better than Vets - only that the decision is much harder to make now. Previously, it was no contest. 

 

Now that this unit has gained an extra shot per Intercessor and an extra wound and attack per Aggressor, along with an extra attack from shock assault, this type of in your face highly mobile, highly resilient unit can really do some work in both the shooting and combat phase at a greater range than Vets with much more mobility. 

 

So... You gave some just straight untrue statements here man.  The dissie one specificically,The t5 fortis team requires ~54 dissie shots (s5 ap-3 2 damage)    That number of shots vs t4 3++ only kills 8 of the marines on avg, meaning 2 are still alive.  54 dissie shots are the equivalent of 6 ravagers worth (which you can't bring obviously) so thats still a lot of shots in fairness, and 3 dissie ravs clock in at 375 points, so devoting 2 rounds of firepower to kill a 288 point squad fully isn't exactly the worst. 

 

Also your statement about more damage apart from vets is only... somewhat true when only looking at bolt weapons, due to how DW works.  For the price of the fortis kill team you could drop 10 plasma/SS vets in rapid fire range, which far exceeds the firepower of either the SS/SB or primaris squad, while having the 3++ surv.  A 5 man squad with 3 SBs 2 frags can kill ~ 7 MEQ, for less than half the cost.  Firepower is no way the point of this squad as DW just has better options pure and simple, its not even close.  For 286 points you can fortis out 5 int w/ auto 4 hellblasters and a inceptor w/ plasma ~8 wounds avg or w/ over charging 9.4 w/ and 12-14 damage (from plasma part alone).  DW just has much much better options for dealing damage, at that point level.  Granted if we they are getting firestorm they do put out good damage, and of course vs GEQ or ork boys type stuff they are very solid as well.

 

The entire point of this squad to me is survivable toolkit squad that can do ok damage, be mobile, draw fire, sit and hold an objective mid table, fight off vehicles mid table in melee, or just push into an enemy tank line.  The fact the squad can reasonably fill all of those roles is what gives the squad value to me.  DW have needed a toolkit squad for a while, and this fills the role in a reasonable way.  DW strength (specialization) has always also been one of their biggest weaknesses.  Just having a catch all do everything squad is just nice for me.  Again though i can't stress this enough, if you play vs DE a lot, primaris in general are bad, even with 3 wound aggressors.  Outside of DE, or plasma spam though they are reasonable choices.

 

 

I don't mean to be a butt, but I think you're the one wrong here. 

 

54 Dissy cannons do on average like 12 unsaved wounds to a T5 unit with 2+ in cover save. The first 23 shots down your 10 Intercessor wounds, but after that you need twice as many unsaved wounds to kill each 3 wound Aggressor/Inceptor. 

 

Except they're in batches of 2 damage per unsaved wound. The next 31 shots only kill 3 Aggressors on average because the damage does not overflow. You'd be left with 4 wounds in total left over with one Aggressor on his last legs and another one untouched. 

 

You need 65 shots to kill your full 10 man Vet squad provided you've taken storm shields on everything. On the Fortis team, you're left with one battered and bruised Aggressor/Inceptor. 

 

With respect, the rest of your comment isn't really relevant so I don't want to derail the thread. Plasma Vets aren't equivalent to this unit because they serve different purposes. I would instead compare to something like Intercessors with Hellblasters or Plasma Inceptors. But I'm trying to point out the storm bolter and Primaris Fortis comparison given the topic of the thread. We can discuss those somewhere else if you'd like biggrin.png

 

But for your last point...based on the mathhammer, this unit does that exact job much better than every part of a storm bolter/storm shield squad as far as I can see. 


Edited by Lemondish, 25 August 2019 - 01:45 AM.


#56
Mobius0288

Mobius0288

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 477 posts
While fairly constructive arguments, we're already derailed... Start a new thread to compare Intercessors vs Vets.

You'd actually get quite a few contributors as the community is still pretty split.

Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#57
spacewatch

spacewatch

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 182 posts
  • Faction: Deathwatch

Yep! Very interesting info and points of viewthumbsup.gif  It looks like that 288 pts Fortis team is now good new assault tool for grabbing and holding midfield objectives. To me both units are more or less comparable both in terms of damage output and durability comparable when taking points difference into account. However, in practice units clearly have totally different roles and uses during the game. Definitely would like to hear more experiences and comments on using that Fortis team.

 

EDIT: few details removed


Edited by spacewatch, 25 August 2019 - 08:43 PM.


#58
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,243 posts

While fairly constructive arguments, we're already derailed... Start a new thread to compare Intercessors vs Vets.

You'd actually get quite a few contributors as the community is still pretty split.


Totally right, apologies I thought I was in the other thread.

Should I remove the posts? Not sure of the rules on that.

#59
Vel'Cona

Vel'Cona

    ++ DUCTOR EXSANGUIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 5,843 posts
  • Location:In the halls of decadent torment . . .
  • Faction: Chaos Space Marines

They're fine to stay, provided the remainder of the convo returns to AoD and DW in a general sense.


Seems like these models will never end!

ETL_2015_Banner_02_Custos_Fidei_02.jpgETL_2016_Banner_03_Custos_Fidei01.jpggallery_48988_10069_10495.pngETL_Medal_02.gifETL_2018_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei_01.gif


 





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users