Grey Knights back to the fray?

[Waking Dreamer]

Yes, we are in the same boat as all the non-codex astartes chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Dark Angels) for the moment, since we are only getting updated with Shock Assault rules. So no enhanced-chapter tactics this time around for us, just like them.

Still, with this new phase (Codex 2.0 / WD updates etc.) of enhancing SM in their own unique chapter style - it would be a great time to update GK core rules to be more on-par with other SM armies while still being fluffy. Compared to Enhanced-CT of the Chapters we've seen so far, how about this idea for our Sons of Titan:

 

GREY KNIGHTS: STORM BOLTER COMBAT

• Honing their martial skills with their wrist-mounted storm bolters, Grey Knights can bring the fury of their storm bolters to bear on the enemy - even in the midst of heavy combat.

• When a GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1” of enemy units, in the player's shooting phase they may fire at the closest enemy unit with their storm bolter, as if it had a profile of Pistol 4.

^ This was discussed a while back, but how would this match up now with the extra rules / buffs other Chapters are getting? I liked this idea a lot since it capitalises on our relatively unique wrist-mounted storm bolters; by maximising it's use while we are even in combat (the usual end goal for our infantry)...and also because:

 

If enough people like it, we could maybe send the idea (or others people can come up with / discuss) to GW, during this new phase of SM upgrading they are in the motion of implementing...??

Edited August 8, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Yossarion]

Yes, we are in the same boat as all the non-codex astartes chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Dark Angels) for the moment, since we are only getting updated with AoD rules. So no enhanced-chapter tactics this time around for us, just like them.

 

Still, with this new phase (Codex 2.0 / WD updates etc.) of enhancing SM in their own unique chapter style - it would be a great time to update GK core rules to be more on-par with other SM armies while still being fluffy. Compared to Enhanced-CT of the Chapters we've seen so far, how about this idea for our Sons of Titan:

 

GREY KNIGHTS: STORM BOLTER COMBAT

• Honing their martial skills with their wrist-mounted storm bolters, Grey Knights can bring the fury of their storm bolters to bear even in the midst of heavy combat.

• When a GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1” of enemy units in the shooting phase, they may fire at the closest enemy unit with their storm bolter, as if it had a profile of Pistol 2.

^ This was discussed a while back, but how would this match up now with the extra rules / buffs other Chapters are getting? I liked this idea a lot since it capitalises on our relatively unique wrist-mounted storm bolters; by maximising it's use while we are even in combat (the usual end goal for our infantry)...and also because:

If enough people like it, we could maybe send the idea (or others people can come up with / discuss) to GW, during this new phase of SM upgrading they are in the motion of implementing....??

 

we're an elite army just make it pistol 4. our models might as well be worth what they cost.

[Waking Dreamer]

we're an elite army just make it pistol 4. our models might as well be worth what they cost.

IIRC, that was the original idea, 4 shots per model during combat. But there was debate whether that was too OP, without an increase in points.

 

Though that was in the context of the others SM chapters staying as is, and not getting anything extra in particular...so with the view of eventually all the SM chapters getting their own unique buff, is an extra 4 S4 AP0 D1 shots per model during combat sounding better /underpowered /overpowered etc..?

 

Where would people here rank it with the revealed Codex SM CTs thus far...?

[Holier Than Thou]

The problem is, those pistol shots happen in the shooting phase. So in our turn, we don't gain anything because we can already shoot before we charge, and in the opponents turn they can (and usually will) just fall back and leave us exposed. We would never gain anything from it.

[Waking Dreamer]

The problem is, those pistol shots happen in the shooting phase. So in our turn, we don't gain anything because we can already shoot before we charge, and in the opponents turn they can (and usually will) just fall back and leave us exposed. We would never gain anything from it.

Hmm, some interesting points there.

 

It's occurred to me when I do get into combat, for the most part that's where it ends for either my unit or the opponents. Of course, that is usually because my 2-3 models end up being surrounded and heavily outnumbered - so from my opponents view they're fine leaving their unit stuck in combat and have their shooters fire at more pressing targets (aka GMNDK etc.).

 

However with the upcoming +1A in the 1st round of combat for all Astartes infantry, I do wonder how enticing it would be for combat units such as Orks, Wraiths, Genestealers and your more general melee blobs / screens to come in and still charge Astartes to bog them down / claim objectives etc. Still, in an edition of horde armies, I don't think there will "never" be a time when the opponent doesn't throw tarpit units against our limited model-count infantry to slow us down, nor will they always have a shooting unit ready to shoot our remaining 2 strike models after they have made their screening unit fall back...but interesting points raised and something to think about. The original idea is still awesomely fluffy...but would it be effective enough among the other upgrades...

 

Any thoughts of some other possible Enhanced CTs that would be useful for GKs then? 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Captain Antargo]

It will definitely provide dakka for Paladins as they already have 3 attacks!

[Captain Antargo]

Yes, we are in the same boat as all the non-codex astartes chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Dark Angels) for the moment, since we are only getting updated with Shock Assault rules. So no enhanced-chapter tactics this time around for us, just like them.

 

Still, with this new phase (Codex 2.0 / WD updates etc.) of enhancing SM in their own unique chapter style - it would be a great time to update GK core rules to be more on-par with other SM armies while still being fluffy. Compared to Enhanced-CT of the Chapters we've seen so far, how about this idea for our Sons of Titan:

 

 

GREY KNIGHTS: STORM BOLTER COMBAT

• Honing their martial skills with their wrist-mounted storm bolters, Grey Knights can bring the fury of their storm bolters to bear on the enemy - even in the midst of heavy combat.

• When a GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1” of enemy units, in the player's shooting phase they may fire at the closest enemy unit with their storm bolter, as if it had a profile of Pistol 4.

^ This was discussed a while back, but how would this match up now with the extra rules / buffs other Chapters are getting? I liked this idea a lot since it capitalises on our relatively unique wrist-mounted storm bolters; by maximising it's use while we are even in combat (the usual end goal for our infantry)...and also because:

 

If enough people like it, we could maybe send the idea (or others people can come up with / discuss) to GW, during this new phase of SM upgrading they are in the motion of implementing...??

YES,YES,YES! That would be awesome! But if that happened other armies/ units will take that buff as well such as Sanguinary Guard (Blood Angels)

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

Any thoughts of some other possible Enhanced CTs that would be useful for GKs then?

The Chapter Tactic that gives +3” to ranged weapons would actually be fantastic for us. Incinerators that can fire after Deepstriking/Gate/Shunting? Incinerators that are a genuine threat in overwatch? Amazing.

And just the sort of thing GW will never, ever let us have. Edited August 8, 2019 by Holier Than Thou

[Captain Antargo]

 

Yes, we are in the same boat as all the non-codex astartes chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Dark Angels) for the moment, since we are only getting updated with AoD rules. So no enhanced-chapter tactics this time around for us, just like them.

 

Still, with this new phase (Codex 2.0 / WD updates etc.) of enhancing SM in their own unique chapter style - it would be a great time to update GK core rules to be more on-par with other SM armies while still being fluffy. Compared to Enhanced-CT of the Chapters we've seen so far, how about this idea for our Sons of Titan:

 

GREY KNIGHTS: STORM BOLTER COMBAT

• Honing their martial skills with their wrist-mounted storm bolters, Grey Knights can bring the fury of their storm bolters to bear even in the midst of heavy combat.

• When a GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1” of enemy units in the shooting phase, they may fire at the closest enemy unit with their storm bolter, as if it had a profile of Pistol 2.

^ This was discussed a while back, but how would this match up now with the extra rules / buffs other Chapters are getting? I liked this idea a lot since it capitalises on our relatively unique wrist-mounted storm bolters; by maximising it's use while we are even in combat (the usual end goal for our infantry)...and also because:

If enough people like it, we could maybe send the idea (or others people can come up with / discuss) to GW, during this new phase of SM upgrading they are in the motion of implementing....??

 

we're an elite army just make it pistol 4. our models might as well be worth what they cost.

 

The main problem is that the SB  doesn't have any AP even if it is -1. GK can be pretty pointless sometimes in the Shooting phase, especially against SM when they get a 3+ save which is so annoying! Storm bolters need to be upgraded and focused on  as you said with using them in CC

[Waking Dreamer]

 

YES,YES,YES! That would be awesome! But if that happened other armies/ units will take that buff as well such as Sanguinary Guard (Blood Angels)

 

I wouldn't think of it as a wargear change / update to storm bolters (wrist-mounted design), but a rule to show how Grey Knights have special training to get more benefits from the unchanged weapon. Much like how Astartes units make better use of bolter weapons compared to non-Astartes units like Sisters of Battle, not because the weapon profiles are different but because they have specialised training with them (aka the Bolter Discipline rule). 

 

 

Any thoughts of some other possible Enhanced CTs that would be useful for GKs then?

 

The Chapter Tactic that gives +3” to ranged weapons would actually be fantastic for us. Incinerators that can fire after Deepstriking/Gate/Shunting? Incinerators that are a genuine threat in overwatch? Amazing.

 

And just the sort of thing GW will never, ever let us have.

 

Well yeah, since that's already been revealed as an option for the Create your own Chapter traits, that would probably be off the list for all official SM armies that have their own Codex already.  A lot of other SM armies would have benefited from that trait as a way to make their heavy/flamers usable too.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Captain Antargo]

Paladins will certainly be getting more attacks and more effective! 3 attacks standard + Banner = 4 attacks + Charge (Angels of death = 5 attacks!

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

Any thoughts of some other possible Enhanced CTs that would be useful for GKs then?

The Chapter Tactic that gives +3” to ranged weapons would actually be fantastic for us. Incinerators that can fire after Deepstriking/Gate/Shunting? Incinerators that are a genuine threat in overwatch? Amazing.

And just the sort of thing GW will never, ever let us have.

Well yeah, since that's already been revealed as an option for the Create your own Chapter traits, that would probably be off the list for all official SM armies that have their own Codex already. A lot of other SM armies would have benefited from that trait as a way to make their heavy/flamers usable too.

You asked what would be useful, I answered. And considering they have filled the new Marine Codex with the same rules that many other Factions had as their shtick, giving GKs an ability that is in another book is hardly breaking protocol. They just won’t because they don’t care. Edited August 8, 2019 by Holier Than Thou

[Waking Dreamer]

So you're saying if they don't give that extra 3" range to weapons tactic to say BA, SW, DW or DA that means they just dont care about those armies either right? Edited August 9, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Holier Than Thou]

So you're saying if they don't give that extra 3" range to weapons tactic to say BA, SW, DW or DA that means they just dont care about those armies either right?

Em, no. What I’m saying is that that particular Chapter Tactic would be excellent for Grey Knights and would give us a play style that would be quite unique, effective and pretty fluffy, breathing new life into one of our signature weapons.

 

But it is exactly the sort of thing that we won’t get because GW have proven numerous times recently, particularly in 8th edition, that they couldn’t care less about Grey Knights or the people who play them and seem to be intentionally trying to alienate them into oblivion.

 

What we will get when our inevitable ‘new’ codex comes out is 85% copy/paste from the current one, some more worthless stratagems, the Shock Assault rule and an increase in melee weapon points costs to compensate for the introduction of said new rule.

 

Honestly, how can you not see this? We went nearly a decade without a new codex, then Matt Ward put some effort in and made a good, thoughtful codex designed with the next edition in mind. For the 6-8 months until 6th edition we were overpowered because we were designed for a different game. Once 6th landed we went from ridiculous to good but GW had already taken the backlash from other factions and so they seem to have deliberately neutered Grey Knights ever since.

[Captain Antargo]

Very true! GW hates our guts!

[newdigitalGK]

I won't go so far as to say GW hates GK's, but we are not a faction they focus on by any means. We are a faction with a singular fluff centrist play style. I think GW tried to emphasis this I believe with the whole SW 'conflict' to show how GK's would be Vs other SM armies. I believe that GW only see's how good GK's are based only on how well we are Vs Demons as a general rule. Hard pill to swallow.  

[Holier Than Thou]

I won't go so far as to say GW hates GK's, but we are not a faction they focus on by any means. We are a faction with a singular fluff centrist play style. I think GW tried to emphasis this I believe with the whole SW 'conflict' to show how GK's would be Vs other SM armies. I believe that GW only see's how good GK's are based only on how well we are Vs Demons as a general rule. Hard pill to swallow.

Except we’re not good vs Daemons either. In fact we’re probably the worst choice for fighting Daemons as they can just bring back their best units for 2CP after we have eventually killed them.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Holier Than Thou

[TheGoldenThrone]

I won't go so far as to say GW hates GK's, but we are not a faction they focus on by any means. We are a faction with a singular fluff centrist play style. I think GW tried to emphasis this I believe with the whole SW 'conflict' to show how GK's would be Vs other SM armies. I believe that GW only see's how good GK's are based only on how well we are Vs Demons as a general rule. Hard pill to swallow.  

I'm not convinced GW is paying attention to GK at all, even vs Demons. Take the new Demons in Kill Team as an example. All of them are 1 wound models (Horrors split into additional 1 wound models). What is the GK "'advantage"' vs Demons in Kill Team? We have a special rule that automatically grants D3 damage on Psybolt vs Demons (D3 otherwise happens only on a Psychic test of 11+). What good is D3 MW damage vs. a 1 wound model? No good at all. Every MW beyond the one that takes a model to 0 wounds is lost. Did anyone at GW think through this so-called advantage?

 

For all intents and purposes, this GK special rule vs Demons does not exist when fighting the Demon faction. Isn't that strange? Can that possibly be intentional? More likely it is an oversight by GW because they aren't paying attention to us. GK appear to have no advocates inside the hallowed walls, nor in GW's playtest community. How else could they miss something like this? 

 

Here's to hoping we get a rewritten Codex. But unless a GK advocate deepstrikes into Nottingham, I fear it will be a half-hearted effort. Whatever faults some might cast upon Ward, at least he cared about the faction. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by TheGoldenThrone

[Captain Antargo]

I think GW has "forgotten" about GK is because they want, and only care, about the new things (Primaris, Phobos), and GK aren't exactly new or updated, but that takes us back to the beginning, GW don't care and can't be bothered with GK.

[Captain Antargo]

 

I'm wondering on the mathhammer to Paladins now though. What's better, 5A S4 AP-2 (Twin Falchions) or 4A S5 AP-2 (Halberd)...?

Just received new intel.. Calling all GK Maths hammerers! We require your immediate assistance!

 

I'd say Halberd is better as it becomes more likely to get dice through, but it depends on what the situation is. Falchions and Halberds are both anti-infantry but again it depends on who you go up against.

[Corvus Fortis]

What is the GK "'advantage"' vs Demons in Kill Team?

 

 

Possessed Marines are daemons too. Plaguebearers can ignore wounds, so D3 might come handy. Daemons likely will get commanders and elites at some point too.

 

I am grateful to GW for not cutting our smite to like 5 or 8 inches. Anyway, we are in a good place in KT. With some luck we can wreck any other elite kill team. 

[Captain Antargo]

Death guard have a few Daemon units, so keep that in mind

[Corvus Fortis]

I don't know, how to interpret this, but in codex review combat doctrines are part of Angels of death rule, just like bolter discipline and Astartes shock assault. 

Could this mean, that every Space Marine codex is getting this? No, no, too good to be true. They will just give bolter discipline and astartes shock assault separately, I guess.

 

EDIT: Tactical flexibility also changes doctrines instead of allowing combat squads.

 

EDIT2: Unfortunately, article only states about giving Shock assault to Deathwatch and Grey Knights, not the Angels of Death. So False Alarm... 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Corvus Fortis

[Shinkosh]

Just found out that C:SM adds back in turn 1 drop pod assault.

 

Apparently its faster than teleporting.....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDG0ScWFJuo&t=32m5s

[angrom]

Yeah saw that drop pod nonsense. It is really pissing me off. So GK got massively nerfed because entire army deep strike first turn was way too powerfull. Now space marines have it and I bet we will never get it back in return. Also regular marines wet down in points and I predict that GK marines will remain at same cost and probably get a nerf on their power weapon because they will be deemed way too broken with new attack bonus