What are you looking forward to most in the RG supplement?

[Saadjor]

Question guys: does this mean that IF and IW and such nullify the basic part of our Tactics? Since they ignore cover?

[CaptainMarsh]

Question guys: does this mean that IF and IW and such nullify the basic part of our Tactics? Since they ignore cover?

They would ignore the first part, since they ignore the bonus to save granted by cover. They would not ignore the second part, since all you need to do is be in/on a terrain feature, not have the benefit of cover necessarily.

[thewarriorhunter]

I hate you guys. After talking to a friend I think I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that I'm wrong and you're wrong... :(

 

I was super excited this morning... now I'm seeing the nerf for what it is... maybe our supplement will make up for this?

[Dracos]

Ouch

 

Yeah with even if Cover Saves were stacking (and they’re not) this is a “bad thing”. RG just got shafted huge. Not that we were setting the competitive world on fire since the nerf to SftS but this doesn’t help at all.

 

If it stacked then maybe it washed but it doesn’t. Prepared Positions would have been something stacking. Saving CP because we don’t need it doesn’t help the Feel Bad theses changes are bringing. Helps my Xiphons (unit they FAQ it and add nerf Aircraft) but yeah, no.

 

-1 to be hit will always and forever trump +1 armor save on a d6 system with - x AP rules. That’s 16% less hits that never need to save.

 

Give me few days the sting will fade and maybe the Stratagem will be a game changer (not holding my breath though).

 

 

 

*Is it my imagination or do the rules for RG and Phobos seem to mesh ... less perfectly than other Chapters?*

[Dracos]

Decades of experience in 40k (minus most of 5th-7th:)) teach me Eldar nerfs don’t have the same effect as Astartes ... and usually don’t get nerfed at all. Maybe slightly biased but I was an Ulthwé player during third addition so I have some experience what a comparatively push and click army they can be.

[Claws and Effect]

Question guys: does this mean that IF and IW and such nullify the basic part of our Tactics? Since they ignore cover?

Yep.

 

It forces us to hide on terrain if we want our Tactic to even exist versus them.

 

And every faction has weapons that ignore cover.

 

We now have the only Chapter Tactic in the book that our opponents can take away from us.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I hate you guys. After talking to a friend I think I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that I'm wrong and you're wrong...

 

I was super excited this morning... now I'm seeing the nerf for what it is... maybe our supplement will make up for this?

 

Don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to be inflammatory, but after your friend what did you conclude we were wrong about?

 

I agree with you on the supplement front, I hope we get at least one new Strategem (or I guess the Psychic Powers) to offset this to some degree. Something like Concealed Positions maybe?

 

 

Ouch

 

Yeah with even if Cover Saves were stacking (and they’re not) this is a “bad thing”. RG just got shafted huge. Not that we were setting the competitive world on fire since the nerf to SftS but this doesn’t help at all.

 

If it stacked then maybe it washed but it doesn’t. Prepared Positions would have been something stacking. Saving CP because we don’t need it doesn’t help the Feel Bad theses changes are bringing. Helps my Xiphons (unit they FAQ it and add nerf Aircraft) but yeah, no.

 

-1 to be hit will always and forever trump +1 armor save on a d6 system with - x AP rules. That’s 16% less hits that never need to save.

 

Give me few days the sting will fade and maybe the Stratagem will be a game changer (not holding my breath though).

 

*Is it my imagination or do the rules for RG and Phobos seem to mesh ... less perfectly than other Chapters?*

 

If by not mesh perfectly you mean units that inherently want to infiltrate closer have their CT mitigated by being too close (12") and getting said tactic turned off, then yes.

 

However, another way to look at it is this: There are only so many pieces of cover on the board, and most of which aren't in your deployment zone. If you play mostly Maelstrom games where you get to place the objectives (or ITC), you can place objectives inside terrain in "No Man's Land" then drop your Phobos boys on top of it, so in that regard they do play well-ish together, as against most fire they are going to get the -1 hit?

 

With regards to +1 Sv vs -1 Hit -> Think of it this way: The more accurate the fire is, the less valuable -1 to hit is. The less AP something has, the more valuable +1 Sv is.

[Saadjor]

I was afraid of that, thanks guys.

Fingers crossed for the supplement then, and see what that brings us.

[CaptainMarsh]

The second half of the tactic doesn't say it requires cover, just that you need to be on/in terrain. So whether a weapon ignores cover or not, doesn't matter. You don't need the benefit of cover to get the -1 to hit, just being on/in terrain. 
Important difference. Small but important. More than 12 inches away and in terrain, RG infantry still get -1 to hit regardless of whether the enemy ignores cover. 

 

 

This Tactic does two things:
1- 12' away, you have the benefit of cover to your saving throw.
2- 12' away, not a vehicle, in/on terrain, enemies have -1 to hit you.

Weapons/Rules which ignore cover or the benefit of cover to saving throws will ignore #1. They do not ignore #2, since #2 does not require you to be benefiting from cover.

Edited August 5, 2019 by CaptainMarsh

[Claws and Effect]

Saving a couple more plasma shots isn't going to help when we're also being hit by more of them.

 

I'm really upset by this nerf. And it is a nert. Before we had -1 to be hit over 12". Now we get cover over 12" and -1 to hit if we're in terrain.

 

There is a LOT more "ignores cover" out there than there is +1 to hit.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Seems like Raven Guard infantry will remain durable and vehicles that can maintain distance will get a buff.  

 

Stormtalons and Godhammer land raiders seem like good options.  Maybe even devastator centurions.

[Race Bannon]

You guys ...

 

ALL

 

THE

 

THINGS

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

You guys ...

 

ALL

 

THE

 

THINGS

 

How dare you come into this thread with your ray of sunshine when we are all brooding!

 

[MajorNese]

Yay, now the camo gear on my vehicles actually works:

 

 

However, a crucial change to all Chapter Tactics in the codex is that they now apply not merely to Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, but to ALL UNITS in a Space Marines Detachment!

 

Yeah...everything from Redemptors over Repulsors or Stormtalons to LandSpeeders on open field get a 2+ armour save. Ignores Cover is usually reserved for anti infantry weaponry, making our vehicles a lot more durable, effectively giving us the ever-present 5++ against AP-3 for free. Even on LandSpeeders. I've seen how annoying Shroudpsalm for AdMech can be (everything counts as in cover), with our selection of vehicles that will be fun...

[Jacques Corbin]

Ugh, no more abusing smoke launchers AND chapter tactics on Ironclads...

 

Still, my long range shooting will be dead hard to dig out.

[Tokugawa]

Massive 2+ vehicles are system breaking. Too many possiblities. Just need to find the best vehicles after the codex hit.

[Biscuittzz]

This is a great CT for us now. As I said over in the N&R thread, GW should be getting rid of all the -1 to hit across the board. Stop being sour because it's happened to your army/ happened to us first. They have to start somewhere. In absolute game terms yes it is a nerf but get over it. It's incredibly fluffy and still top tier compared to the other legions. A boost to vehicles across the board is insane and will give good synergy and new gameplay compared to the infantry heavy styles we've seen before.

 

The armies that negate the first part of our CT are miniscule - IF, IW and tau mostly. Out of the massive number of armies/sub factions within the game that's hardly game breaking.

 

I'm actually quite shocked at the reaction to the changes - I've always found Raven Guard players to be measured and take the game as it comes rather than being the ultra-competitive gladius types from 7th. Maybe the fact that we were long sub-par for many editions before we were dining at the top table in 8th (relative to marine sub factions) gave us a taste of the high life and now we can't handle that it's gone. 

 

You would think we were Black Templars going by some of you. 

[Dracos]

Why the hate for a simple -1 to be hit? Just don't let it stack!

 

If a -1 to be hit is game breaking then Crimson Fist getting +1 to hit is equally game breaking, and I'm not touching how one offensive CT negating another defensive CT is poor game mechanics that create real Fell Bads when gaming.

 

I'm hurt, the BT comment is totally OP man Give it a couple days before being the voice of reason. If I'm like this come the weekend then by all means call the Chaplain on me. 

 

 

PS: Totally loved mt Demonhunter Grey Knights back in the day (before Apocalypse chased me out of the game) The second they get the Primaris treatment (and how can they not eventually) I'm back in :)

Edited August 5, 2019 by Dracos

[Biscuittzz]

If you're using the CT as a straight up buff for a gunline then yes it doesn't exactly mesh with a lot of the new vanguard/infiltrator stuff as they will largely be too close to benefit.

 

If you're using it as IMO GW envisaged i.e. a buff to protect units as they move into kill range/ close combat range then you won't need to worry anyway as you'll have infiltrated into said range without taking any casualties. Whether the units are any good to use once they get within 12" is a completely separate issue to our chapter tactics.

 

I'm happy with the changes but mostly on first viewing the fact that aircraft are now a bit better. In my opinion, aircraft have always been very fluffy for the RG and now I'm a lot happier that they're getting some love. I've never liked the use of dreadnoughts, as I considered them unfluffy, which a lot in this thread are espousing as unusable now. Serious amount of whining in here which I've never seen in the RG sub before.

[Dracos]

I need to see the Codex first. Then the supplement. I'm just finishing my Aggressors and need to know if they will travel in the new Primaris Transport (cant remember the name right now). If they do then I'll be building 2 - 5 man units of Infiltrators and using the Stalker Bolt Rifle on at least 10 of the 20 Intercessors.

 

 . . . and I'm thinking of selling the NIB FW RG Contemptor. I'm surprised how much I like the Invictus walker. I'm hoping they have different weapon options. If I can get one with a plasma cannon hand gun equivilance I'm in.

[Claws and Effect]

Serious amount of whining in here which I've never seen in the RG sub before.

We've never had our Chapter Tactic go from middle of the pack to the worst one in the book before.

 

Seriously, go look at the Tactics the other Chapters got and compare them to ours.

 

I mean, the Imperial Fists Tactic flat out shuts ours off. Any time you have one faction that can just straight up turn off another's ability just by existing, that's bad design.

[Claws and Effect]

My biggest complaint with the change is that it doesn't FEEL like Raven Guard.

 

What we got honestly screams Imperial Fists. Seriously, how did the Raven Guard get better at fortifying their positions than the Chapter that is FAMOUS FOR IT?!

 

This Tactic lends itself to using lots of heavy weapons at long range. Have you ever read a single bit of fluff where the Raven Guard did that by choice when there were other options?

 

A buff to vehicles is great.....but it was given to a Chapter that traditionally doesn't use a lot of vehicles.

 

Really, what GW is doing here is largely ignoring how this Chapter has always been portrayed and reinventing it as something else.

 

They turned us into fething Tau.

[duz_]

It's painful but not the too terrible

For overall game design make sense we might see this filter to through to other armies that had similar CTs (ie. - 1 to hit)

 

I agree Biscuit flyers get a great lil boon for this

Might even get my stormtalons back out and finish the other big bird I have. ;)

 

Off to build my Sv2+ repulsor now :tu:

[Dracos]

It is, but IF pretty weak toast in the grand scheme of things. Both could be considered situational.

 

For instance. Crimson Fist CT is useless against MSU armies. I admit I like the BT one but the second part is situational (5++ vs mortal wounds) meh. UM got better by a touch, but I don't use vehicles that way myself. WS is good for kiting but I think it has issues similar ish to ours as far a a focused combat design, Sallies good as before and a bump with defense vs -1 AP makes them a good anti-Intercessor army (?), I like the Ironhands (Hawkshroud anyone) but its vehicle focused which  think is fine but not me. Could make a Repulsor army hell to deal with tough.

 

Lots of situational bumps nothing screams must take to win for a DIY CT. I'll be more interested after seeing the new Codex and RD supplement on how to start building toward the future. I see a lot of Phobos armor I think. Please Emperor just give me a decent vehicle or deep strike stratagem to get my Aggressors stuck in and I'll praise you forever.

[Claws and Effect]

You missed the Iron Hands hit on 5s and 6s in overwatch now.

 

You want to charge those Iron Hands Aggressors that didn't move? Not me.

 

I see a perfect combo for DIY.

 

Ultramarines shoot after falling back combined with Scars charge after advancing or falling back.

 

Lock them in combat during their turn, fall back and shoot, charge back in to lock them in again.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Claws and Effect