BA Codex 0.2 Speculation/Discussion

[Panzer]

 

The fact that we don't get the doctrines makes zero sense. Before, we had our own chapter tactic, the Red Thirst and some unique characters and units. On the other hand, normal Marines got chapter tactics of their own, such as Codex Discipline for the Ultramarines, and unique units that we don't get. It meant that, on the whole, there was balance between the two sides. Now that balance has been massively upset. 

But you are comparing the first BA Codex of 8e with the second vanilla Codex of 8e. Just because we don't get what's in their book immediately it doesn't mean we won't get something else in our second Codex too. Apples and oranges.

 

 

As for the people who went and bought Centurions and Stormravens and such based on a WarCom article (that didn't even explicitly said we can take those units now except for the quickly fixed SW Stormraven mistake) ... that's kinda on them. They should have waited a few days to see whether it'll really be like that. The Codex is out in a bit more than one week now and then they could have read it black on white that they still can't use those units.

[t-dog1996]

 

 

The fact that we don't get the doctrines makes zero sense. Before, we had our own chapter tactic, the Red Thirst and some unique characters and units. On the other hand, normal Marines got chapter tactics of their own, such as Codex Discipline for the Ultramarines, and unique units that we don't get. It meant that, on the whole, there was balance between the two sides. Now that balance has been massively upset. 

But you are comparing the first BA Codex of 8e with the second vanilla Codex of 8e. Just because we don't get what's in their book immediately it doesn't mean we won't get something else in our second Codex too. Apples and oranges.

 

 

As for the people who went and bought Centurions and Stormravens and such based on a WarCom article (that didn't even explicitly said we can take those units now except for the quickly fixed SW Stormraven mistake) ... that's kinda on them. They should have waited a few days to see whether it'll really be like that. The Codex is out in a bit more than one week now and then they could have read it black on white that they still can't use those units.

 

 

I don't know Panzer I read the article in question and it said that BA, SW and DA could have all the new stuff, and when people asked for clarification they confirmed it. I don't really blame the Community Team, after all they can only say what they are told, but it's poor form for GW as a whole. That said my sympathy for people who went out and impulsively bought new stuff based on that is somewhat limited.

 

As for us getting our own codex down the line, yes perhaps but they've already said we're getting a PDF update with the new units and rules so it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to include the doctrines in that.

Edited August 8, 2019 by t-dog1996

[Panzer]

 

 

 

The fact that we don't get the doctrines makes zero sense. Before, we had our own chapter tactic, the Red Thirst and some unique characters and units. On the other hand, normal Marines got chapter tactics of their own, such as Codex Discipline for the Ultramarines, and unique units that we don't get. It meant that, on the whole, there was balance between the two sides. Now that balance has been massively upset. 

But you are comparing the first BA Codex of 8e with the second vanilla Codex of 8e. Just because we don't get what's in their book immediately it doesn't mean we won't get something else in our second Codex too. Apples and oranges.

 

 

As for the people who went and bought Centurions and Stormravens and such based on a WarCom article (that didn't even explicitly said we can take those units now except for the quickly fixed SW Stormraven mistake) ... that's kinda on them. They should have waited a few days to see whether it'll really be like that. The Codex is out in a bit more than one week now and then they could have read it black on white that they still can't use those units.

 

 

I don't know Panzer I read the article in question and it said that BA, SW and DA could have all the new stuff, and when people asked for clarification they confirmed it. I don't really blame the Community Team, after all they can only say what they are told, but it's poor form for GW as a whole. That said my sympathy for people who went out and impulsively bought new stuff based on that is somewhat limited.

 

As for us getting our own codex down the line, yes perhaps but they've already said we're getting a PDF update with the new units and rules so it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to include the doctrines in that.

 

 

But Centurions, Stormraven etc. aren't new stuff. They are old stuff. Primaris units are new stuff and we indeed get those like they said.

 

Giving us the doctrines via PDF wouldn't make any sense if they aren't part of our next Codex. I'm sure they would have done exactly that if that were the case.

[Karhedron]

Giving us the doctrines via PDF wouldn't make any sense if they aren't part of our next Codex. I'm sure they would have done exactly that if that were the case.

The point is that they should be. BAs and DAs are based heavily on the Codex, even if we aren't strictly compliant. We even have Devastator, Tactical and Assault squads (just like the Codex chapters and their Doctrines).

 

Codex Marines got new buffed traits. No complaints from me, they needed them. Our trait is still pretty good and will remain so with the new +1A on the charge. But Doctrines are a whole new stack of army-wide bonuses on top that should be available to us. I am used to not getting all the shiny new codex toys but this really does shuffle BAs, DAs and SWs to the bottom of the pile.

[Panzer]

They should be from our perspective because we don't know if and what GW has planned for our future.

[t-dog1996]

They should be from our perspective because we don't know if and what GW has planned for our future.

 

I think the best way to sum it up would be this: A chapter that follows the Codex Astartes should be allowed to use the Codex Astartes. Blood Angels (and Dark Angels) follow the Codex Astartes so we should get access to tactical doctrines that stem from the Codex. Yes we are distinctive with our own unique units, traits, stratagems, powers and characters, but that has as many disadvantages as advantages. The most egregious aspect of this is that the Black Templars, who's tactics differ radically from the codex, will get to use these new doctrines but we, a Codex chapter, won't.

[BluejayJunior]

I think the complaints about not getting combat doctrines are little overblown at this point. It's like complaining the Blood Angels didn't get a Chapter Tactic when the first 8e Codex:Space Marines came out. I'm sure we'll get Combat Doctines or something equivalent when a new, updated codex comes out. Just like our CT will be upgraded then, too. 

[Xerxus]

They will undoubtedly give us a more appropriate army-wide trait to represent our tactics when the BA codex arrives. It would be a shame if we were locked into doctrines instead, since they plainly promote shooting over assault in a way that does not suit BA. We are simply not codex-compliant in that sense. I want them to take their time, prepare multiple unique releases for us and consider how our new rules can revitalize an aggressive playstyle.

[Karhedron]

I think the complaints about not getting combat doctrines are little overblown at this point. It's like complaining the Blood Angels didn't get a Chapter Tactic when the first 8e Codex:Space Marines came out. I'm sure we'll get Combat Doctines or something equivalent when a new, updated codex comes out. Just like our CT will be upgraded then, too.

The difference is that at the start of 8th, we knew our turn in the codex cycle would come as GW had promised all new codices within 12 months (in fact we were only 3 months after SMs from memory).

 

Now we are in a different situation where it could be a very long time until we get our next codex. What about Space Wolves? Their codex is only 12 months old. If GW update it they will be accused of cash grabbing and if they don't they will be left with a codex that struggles even more.

 

GW seem to have chosen a "worst of both worlds" approach with how they have applied updates to the Big 3 non-codex Chapters.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Karhedron

[Charlo]

I really don't think it's that big a deal guys.

 

It only becomes a big deal when our new book comes out and we have no new rules of note (I'm looking at you, useless decurion in 7th).

 

Also, lol, no way people have been buying centurions and flyers in the wake of a single line of a Warcom article. Even less chance they've already started building them and can't get refunded. That sounds like panic spreading.

[Karhedron]

Also, lol, no way people have been buying centurions and flyers in the wake of a single line of a Warcom article. Even less chance they've already started building them and can't get refunded. That sounds like panic spreading.

No, that is definitely real. There are a couple of very annoyed (and vocal) posters on the Warhammer Community FB page who made significant purchases on the basis of the original article. One even had pictures of half-painted SW Centurions to prove he wasn't just whining for the sake of it.

 

I have to say, I have learned to treat the WH Community page as interesting but not guaranteed. We have seen enough mistakes to know that they do not always get details right and I wouldn't base purchases on their articles until I had the codex in hand.

[t-dog1996]

I really don't think it's that big a deal guys.

 

It only becomes a big deal when our new book comes out and we have no new rules of note (I'm looking at you, useless decurion in 7th).

 

Also, lol, no way people have been buying centurions and flyers in the wake of a single line of a Warcom article. Even less chance they've already started building them and can't get refunded. That sounds like panic spreading.

 

Lol as I recall we didn't even get a decurion in our 7th ed codex. We had to wait for Angel's Blade for that and it wasn't even particularly good. That said the Baal Strike Force wasn't exactly bad. It made for some extremely powerful Death Company combos. It was just that overall compared to some of the stuff other factions got it simply wasn't in the same league.

[Panzer]

Also, lol, no way people have been buying centurions and flyers in the wake of a single line of a Warcom article. Even less chance they've already started building them and can't get refunded. That sounds like panic spreading.

 

I wish you were right about that lol

 

That guy was going mental and demanded GW to do something about it, though he deleted most of his comments afterwards.

[G8Keeper]

That's rough. Ouch

[The4thHorseman]

There is likely NO Editor in Chief in the Social Media Team/ Warcom. That person would at least call the Rules Team or Send the Article to make sure that was the latest and accurate rules to post. Guess QAQC is not a high priority for previews.

[Charlo]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe him. Especially with that Avatar. Looks like a troll. But that's off topic regardless.

 

Ultra preview is up today!

 

My thoughts as from the NRA:

 

 GEE KIDS, I HOPE YOU LIKE RULES!

 

I'm very happy about all this support but my god. Layers upon layers upon layers!

 

Further musing:

 

Scions of Guilliman is crazy good, you can sit for a turn blasting away with heavy weapons then turn two you get to decide if you want to move forward and start unleashing bolter hell with Tactical and no hit penalty on your heavies or stay put.

 

I did not expect even MORE rules on top for the chapters in the supplements, just replacements (relics/ WLT/ Psy powers/ strats etc) but having another base rule on top is gnarly.

 

Also very surpised to see Cato sticking around and even the 'Nid Hunters and honour guard called out. I figured they'd be GONE asap being resin. Hope for those BA characters yet...

 

ALSO while in Tactical Doctrine Ultras can move and fire vehicles with no penalty to heavy weapons. Good god. I'm not sure what else could be better.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Charlo

[Indefragable]

Who's more foolish? The fool who posts minimal info or the fool who goes out and spends a billion dollars based on that minimal info?

 

I would be more sympathetic to these impulse buyers if it was....oh...I don't know, more than a DAY or so since they put 1 line in single web post.

 

...although I am significantly impressed if someone can actually run out and buy that much crap, assemble, clean, and paint to standard that much stuff in a single day. Suspiciously impressed....

 

As for everyone getting so worked up about the new shinies in the book that is not even out yet....To quote a movie..."chill Winston." 

 

Let's be patient and see what the future holds. I am sure we'll get good stuff as well. If you really want to play Red Marines then play Red Marines....you may an advantage, in fact, since you can cherry-pick what abilities you want via building successor chapters.

[Klod]

LOL what the hell is going on with BA page on GW website? It's full of Tyranids, Orks, Eldar and other units. 

[t-dog1996]

LOL what the hell is going on with BA page on GW website? It's full of Tyranids, Orks, Eldar and other units. 

 

...so it is. I thought it was odd that we had 110 units in our section despite having considerably fewer units than that in our army. That's... interesting.

[Charlo]

LOL what the hell is going on with BA page on GW website? It's full of Tyranids, Orks, Eldar and other units.

They're matching it to the current state of Baal I see.

[t-dog1996]

Who's more foolish? The fool who posts minimal info or the fool who goes out and spends a billion dollars based on that minimal info?

 

I would be more sympathetic to these impulse buyers if it was....oh...I don't know, more than a DAY or so since they put 1 line in single web post.

 

...although I am significantly impressed if someone can actually run out and buy that much crap, assemble, clean, and paint to standard that much stuff in a single day. Suspiciously impressed....

 

As for everyone getting so worked up about the new shinies in the book that is not even out yet....To quote a movie..."chill Winston." 

 

Let's be patient and see what the future holds. I am sure we'll get good stuff as well. If you really want to play Red Marines then play Red Marines....you may an advantage, in fact, since you can cherry-pick what abilities you want via building successor chapters.

 

I'm less worked up about not getting combat doctrines right now than I was a bit earlier, and I suppose this does calm the fears that we were being rolled into standard marines a la Black Templars, but even so it feels... somehow wrong. If we get a new codex of our own in the not too distant future then I will happily retract my angry statements and give GW their props, but as with anything I'll believe it when I see it.

 

By the way Indy, props for that subtle Obi-wan reference. One of his most underrated lines.

Edited August 8, 2019 by t-dog1996

[Panzer]

UM Veteran Intercessors and Aggressors will be sick. A 10 man unit that can move around and pour out 40 S4 AP-2 shots at 30" and a 3 man unit that can move around and pour out 57 S4 AP-1 shots at 18".

Not sure if I should be scared or looking forward to what we might get lol

[Blindhamster]

What usually happens for us, is they realise they over did it and tone right back by the time they get to us... overdoing they too. Wouldn't be surprised if we are mostly unchanged from our current book

[Panzer]

What usually happens for us, is they realise they over did it and tone right back by the time they get to us... overdoing they too. Wouldn't be surprised if we are mostly unchanged from our current book

 

True. And then when they get around to SW or DW they are overdoing it again in the other direction usually (early 8th edition was a pleasent surprise for us when compared to the SW Codex lol).

[Indefragable]

What usually happens for us, is they realise they over did it and tone right back by the time they get to us... overdoing they too. Wouldn't be surprised if we are mostly unchanged from our current book

 

I tend to lean towards your pessmism, but I think this new Codex: SM changes this up way too much to go back. Just look at the layering of rules and abilities:

 

1. Chapter Tactic A

2. Chapter Tactic B

3. Chapter Tactic C (how UM supplement actually has a 3rd piece, the move+shoot part)

4. Warlord Traits

5. Relics

6. Psychic Powers

7. Strategems

8. Tactical Doctrines

9. Formation thingies from Vigilus

 

....so let's say 4=7 remain completely unchanged for us....that still leaves room for possible 1-2 more "additional" Chapter Tactics, possible equivalent/alternative Tactical Doctrines, and possible not-Formations from a campaign release for us to explore.

 

If those additions mean selling more models, I would bet GW gives us (and DA, SW, DW, GK) more.