Speculation on points drop for Roboute Guilliman

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am think he is going to drop down to 275-300 point range but no nerfs. That is a good range in my opinion.

[Subtleknife]

Point already leaked he is 330 off the top of my head and no longer rerolls all wounds just rolls of 1

[Ishagu]

He's changed quite a bit.

 

-Cost is 330

-Hand of Dominion is Damage 4

-He gets Angels of Death, meaning more attacks, Doctrines, benefits from CT

-He re rolls all hits now, that's stronger.

-Wound re rolls is a massive nerf.

 

 

Biggest Problem is that a Chapter Master and Lt are now by far the better choice because they are the mandatory HQs in your list and don't require a separate detachment. He can't enter ruins, transports or deploy anywhere outside of regular deployment.

 

 

Unfortunately I feel he'll be far, far less relevant.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman broke the game with rerolls to wound. Now, Marines have received a buff across the board so he doesn't need to be as powerful with the wounds rolls.

 

He's now even more powerful in melee and his Rapid Fire D2 S6 weapon is going to benefit greatly from the Tactical Doctrine. As an Ultramarine... He will get 6 shots a turn even moving!

[Ishagu]

Still weaker. He's actually 350 points, just seen a better image of the points.

 

If he was a HQ he'd be great.

 

Also enough with the hyperbole lol. He never broke the game. Poor guy barely won half the time.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

He broke the game because he was absurdly powerful. You've proven my point for me - he managed a 50% win rate in a meta where the army he was drawn from was far below standard.

 

Any true tournament player will tell you he was too powerful and needed changing because straight reroll wounds is too much. Now that Marines are getting more powerful it is logical that Guilliman should be less needed as a crutch to boost competitive play and thus doesn't need to be as powerful in ALL of his abilities to be useful and worth a place.

 

You might not find his points cost palatable, for that matter I never did because I enjoyed stuff on the table and he is an investment, but other people found ways to use him very well.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He is still a total beat stick and less points. So I’ll stick with him.

 

This tells me they want to tone down Primarchs in general which I’m cool with happening.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Still weaker. He's actually 350 points, just seen a better image of the points.

If he was a HQ he'd be great.

Also enough with the hyperbole lol. He never broke the game. Poor guy barely won half the time.

Love you brother... I’ve never lost with him and have won some local events with him... nothing LVO level but versus diverse top tier lists.

[Seahawk]

He's 350, not 330. 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Seahawk

[Ishagu]

He broke the game because he was absurdly powerful. You've proven my point for me - he managed a 50% win rate in a meta where the army he was drawn from was far below standard.

 

Any true tournament player will tell you he was too powerful and needed changing because straight reroll wounds is too much. Now that Marines are getting more powerful it is logical that Guilliman should be less needed as a crutch to boost competitive play and thus doesn't need to be as powerful in ALL of his abilities to be useful and worth a place.

 

You might not find his points cost palatable, for that matter I never did because I enjoyed stuff on the table and he is an investment, but other people found ways to use him very well.

No he didn't. Win rate was 40%

 

You claim he was over powered but you've never used him. You've said yourself you still haven't painted up the model.

 

Either way, let's drop the hyperbole. He was a strong choice, but I think you need to look up the definition of broken. He certainly did not break the game.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the change in the rules, I just think the point drop a wasn't enough because there are too many drawbacks to running RG over a CT and LT.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ishagu

[neonmole]

He did break the game, or at the very least broke space marines. Internal balance was an impossibility with him present, particularly across chapters.

 

It was not possible to appropriately cost a unit for both ultramarines (assuming the presence) of old Guilliman, and any other chapter.

 

The only other solution would have been to have a totally separate set of points costs for <ultramarines> units vs any other marine. And then what about the UM players who don’t want to take G man every time?

 

This is a very, very much needed, and extremely positive change for the game, and particularly for players of the faction.

[Captain Idaho]

Stop labelling it hyperbole just because you don't agree with everyone. It's rather condescending.

 

I never played WITH him, but I sure played against him. As have my tournament friends, some of which use him.

 

Dismissing my opinion because I never used something is like saying YOU can't have an opinion on Eldar broken units because you're only the opponent, because you don't run Eldar.

[Ishagu]

Still didn't break the game. Not arguing that he was hard to balance in the book itself.

 

Remember what I said, I'm perfectly happy with the change. I just think that losing re roll all wounds should remove more than 50 points from his cost. Do you think that's what that aura was worth over a standard Lt? Lol

 

And yes, he gets Angels of Death now, but so does everything else without a point increase.

 

It doesn't matter what he did before. I'm talking about his value compared to other units now.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Right now...? Hmmm his value is hard to ascertaining. I'm happy with 350pts now more than 400pts. Tactical Marines have gone down in points (watching Tabletop Tactics now - squee) so as a whole there are changes we can't see.

 

Way I see it, Calgar + Lieutenant is about (without knowing wargear and Primaris or Classic exactly) 70-90pts cheaper. Would I pay the extra points to make the Lieutenant ability less easy to remove and have a shooting and melee model that is superior by far?

 

Yes I probably would and now my friends won't feel as bad if I take him.

[Captain Idaho]

Oooo just heard about an actual nerf we didn't think about from TT... Guilliman doesn't get Chapter Tactics I believe if he's taken in a Super Heavy detachment - you need to take a Supreme Command Detachment. Lance just read out the rule.

[Ishagu]

Yep, that's pretty weak. Definitely Calgar and Lt the way to go.

 

GW might have gone too far, same with the Castellan Knight.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe. He doesn't much need the Chapter Tactic but it's a flaring ommission.

[Ishagu]

So does Guilliman even get the Tactical Doctrine bonus as he isn't an Ultramarine?

[Subtleknife]

With his abilities I reckon 300 would have been fair. At 350 calgar with lt is a straight up better choice.

[Captain Idaho]

So does Guilliman even get the Tactical Doctrine bonus as he isn't an Ultramarine?

He's got Angel of Death so yes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He did break the game, or at the very least broke space marines. Internal balance was an impossibility with him present, particularly across chapters.

It was not possible to appropriately cost a unit for both ultramarines (assuming the presence) of old Guilliman, and any other chapter.

The only other solution would have been to have a totally separate set of points costs for <ultramarines> units vs any other marine. And then what about the UM players who don’t want to take G man every time?

This is a very, very much needed, and extremely positive change for the game, and particularly for players of the faction.

Well except for tactical Marines (1 point) no other infantry units have gone down in points so that right there goes against your premise plus GW has stated Marines weren’t costed with Guilliman in mind.

[Captain Idaho]

There's so much I want with my army I reckon I'll just not take Guilliman in the future anyway. Not because I think he's a bad investment but because I want ALL the toys.

 

ALL. THE. TOYS.

[Ishagu]

So after after arguing that he's still some amazing investment you're not going to be running the unit.

 

Thank you for confirming my point of view. He's simply not an attractive prospect.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Just because I don't choose to run something doesn't mean you're right that he's not an attractive prospect. Otherwise, by your logic, Primaris aren't either because I don't run them ;)

 

It's like taking a Dragon in a High Elf Fantasy army - very powerful and hard to counter at times but can skew playstyle into a pigeon hole.

[Prot]

 

He did break the game, or at the very least broke space marines. Internal balance was an impossibility with him present, particularly across chapters.

It was not possible to appropriately cost a unit for both ultramarines (assuming the presence) of old Guilliman, and any other chapter.

The only other solution would have been to have a totally separate set of points costs for <ultramarines> units vs any other marine. And then what about the UM players who don’t want to take G man every time?

This is a very, very much needed, and extremely positive change for the game, and particularly for players of the faction.

Well except for tactical Marines (1 point) no other infantry units have gone down in points so that right there goes against your premise plus GW has stated Marines weren’t costed with Guilliman in mind.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen a reduction in Reivers... I think 2 points per model? I played them last night at their full points anyway but with the new rules they felt a ton better.

 

So after after arguing that he's still some amazing investment you're not going to be running the unit.

 

Thank you for confirming my point of view. He's simply not an attractive prospect.

 

Sarcasm aside... what's the point of this? Can we be done with this already?  

 

Perhaps the fact that two players feel strongly divided on him.... maybe this means they got it right? I don't know personally. I play for fun as often as I play competitively and my personal gripe with Guilliman was that he affected the way they write marines for everyone. His multiplicative effect made balance hard to do for players that don't have access to him. Math tells us this is a truth, not an opinion. By removing his special sauce aura ability, now he's simply combining two 'normal' auras and I think he's still good. Not as good... but good. 

 

Can we at the very least just say we need to see him in action, play him, play against him before further judging him a dud or not. Otherwise the current line of arguing really isn't solving anything and here we are supposed to be celebrating a fine upgrade to our chapter.

 

I'm just going to say after my one test game last night that I (at this point) feel the "big winner" is the common infantry. And nearly all of it! 

 

The changes are subtle, but in the totality of an army where I was reducing marines, increasing vehicles, I finally felt the power of the Infantry coming back into effect. That felt fantastic. I'm not saying this as a "Primaris" or "First Born" thing... I feel it will have an infantry-army wide effect.