Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

The exact quote is:

 

"Yet despite the losses suffered and the unspeakable agonies of undergoing the Primaris ascension, more battle-brothers crossed the Rubicon with every passing day."

 

On the page opposite that is another choice quote:

"They sought this agonising apotheosis not for personal glory, but because no Space Marine would refuse greater strength, resilience and weaponry with which to protect the Imperium and slaughter their many foes."

That quote sounds like it could be straight our of Fulgrim

I've always thought the fall of the E. kids to be the most realistic and deepest fall of the legions. I didn't care for Fulgrim's path down the fall being "I picked up a tainted thing and became tainted," but as a legion, I liked it. Very "the path to hell is paved with good intentions," I felt.

 

I think the problem with killing a character who attempts the Rubicon might be that it would annoy the fans. I know I'd be annoyed if my favorite character died crossing the rubicon for no other reason than that "well, some of them had to die." It wouldn't be very fulfilling from a plot aspect, so you'd have to have characters who are either irrelevant to the chapter's identity (and so, nobody cares) or "new" characters like some captain who didn't have a character model before. I suppose you could always go the way of Captain Tycho, and go with that "he's dead, but this model/rules simulates him in the past," but I don't really like that.

There are many dozens of famous marine characters that can easily die crossing the Rubicon and still have none of them be models for available characters.

 

After all, not every leader in a marine Chapter is a model, but they are all characters that build this narrative.

[War Angel]

I don’t think they will kill any of the modeled characters, and I guess that’s fine, but I also feel like we’re not going to get any new ones. In third edition Lysander was a Sergeant. Then GW decided they needed a terminator captain, and instead of adding to their rules/characters, they just gave him a promotion.

 

That makes me sad because they really don’t like to get up to make new characters, and I think each of the “codex” chapters (first founding, BT and CF) deserve more. Cheers to IH on finally getting one, it’s about damn time.

[CCE1981]

GW has killed Characters with models before. Apparently a Chaplain wielding a Thunderhammer is so massively game breaking it was just easier to kill him off :(

[MegaVolt87]

I would rather see new Primaris characters than rubiconed golden oldies. The named primaris lieutenants are a good start. 

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. I think the story from the perspective of a new recruit to the 41st millennium would be interesting. Or someone who was an original Primaris.

 

(I think we might be M42 now so don't shoot me over the date!)

[PiñaColada]

While I agree GW is unlikely to kill off any major characters crossing the rubicon, it would be cool to see some complications arise from it here and there. One of the easier examples is probably just putting said character in a redemptor. I understand there's no real risk involved, but interring a character here or there into a dread would make it seem a bit more risky while still not losing any models.

[dogfender]

Bring on primaris Artekus Bardane

[Marshal Reinhard]

I have to wonder, those who keep voicing the opinion that they'd like to see new Primaris characters rather than rubiconed ones... is this because they want any classic characters to remain as a classics rather than them caring about any potential new Primaris character? If it is, then fair enough. But otherwise I feel wether or not a classic character goes through the rubicon or not, should have zero bearing on the introduction of new characters.

[Slasher956]

Or are they just trying to keep the numbers of space marine heros down to make production room for the Xenos characters?

 

 

edit - or wanting the specialist relics to be wielded by a new character... like how Lysander got his thunderhammer (given to him when he was a Terminator Sgt when the 1st Coy Capt telaported in to a cliff face)

Edited August 15, 2019 by Slasher956

[Wraithwing]

Don’t forget that Uriel Ventris has also crossed the Rubicon.

 

Well, he was in the process of doing so during the short story released for Warhammer Day.

[Ishagu]

I would like a Ventris model...

[Captain Idaho]

I have to wonder, those who keep voicing the opinion that they'd like to see new Primaris characters rather than rubiconed ones... is this because they want any classic characters to remain as a classics rather than them caring about any potential new Primaris character? If it is, then fair enough. But otherwise I feel wether or not a classic character goes through the rubicon or not, should have zero bearing on the introduction of new characters.

Nah I rarely use special characters. I've long ago given up on new Classic Marines so it isn't an issue for me.

 

It's a matter of literary respectability. If GW is confident in their writers then they should be confident that new characters can be exciting and fresh.

 

And sheer originality.

 

Not to mention that the releases will be hit or miss. Tigurius is a great new reimagining. Korsorro Khan is fairly generic and less impressive than his last model and feels forced since White Scars make better use of Classic Marines than Primaris.

[Ishagu]

The problem with that is the new characters can't compete with 20 years of lore some of the old ones have.

 

Millions of people know about Dante and like the character. Lots of them want to see a Primaris version with a suitably epic model. How upset would they be if he was ignored for some new guy no one has heard of?

Edited August 15, 2019 by Ishagu

[Robbienw]

A large amount of millions of people want a primaris dante model :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

We're getting into the realms of conjecture, assumption and subjective opinions now.

[Brother Quixote]

The thing is, there's no reason to outright state that rank and file marines have crossed the rubicon at the moment so the fluff never will.  The new models have seperate wargear entirely, intentionally so that people can buy both models if they like.

 

  In universe there is no real reason for a marine to do it either, why reduce your fighting strength significantly  for a marginal benefit? At a time of crisis you use your resources as they are and new recruits are the priority  - apart from in special circumstances.

 

Characters are going to be the only noticeable Rubicon candidates, intentionally so.  These as we have seen can be handled well - Calgar, with a narrative reason and upgraded wargear that fits and not so well - the Khan with a reason but rules that fall flat due to lack of suitable available Primaris wargear (Bikes). Tigurius has okay wargear, but why would you risk your best psyker outright dying? You wouldn't.

 

I can see similar problems ahead with a lot of special characters - no jump packs are a big one, Shrike or Dante embiggened on foot are just not the same.  Besides Dante has in universe responsibilities that should keep him far from the front lines now.

 

I'd like to see some new original Primaris characters regardless of what happens to the existing ones for those who like special characters.  Some should stay as historical characters though.  Not so sure about straight up Primaris Terminators or tacticals though and GW are avoiding it for obvious reasons.

[Subtleknife]

I wouldnt call greatly increasing you survivability and damage out put marginal. If it was only marginal there would be no in universe explanation for primaris. I think the new codex has a line in stating that more and more marines are crossing the Rubicon daily because it makes them better able to serve the imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

Again that is a matter of perspective. Space Marines are already super human. They already can survive wounds and perform feats that are beyond feasible. They already crush a man's skull, so is the extra strength warranted.

 

Against Chaos Marines then maybe yes, it gives them an edge. But for the most part... there is little point really.

 

It's what we got mind so we have to run with it and consider it makes sense in universe.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[MajorNese]

 

It's a matter of literary respectability. If GW is confident in their writers then they should be confident that new characters can be exciting and fresh.

 

And sheer originality.

That's the issue with new characters - a lot of the new "product placement fluff" (like Skitarius and related short stories) just paraphrase codex entries, and the characters are likewise carbon copies of the generic codex entry. Quite a few other recent publications only serve to showcase the new primaris releases, and even if the characters in them have names, they don't have any character. "He's heroic, skilled, and a brilliant strategist, and charismatic. And wearing exactly what the unit entry mentions."

 

What people would actually find interesting is what you mentioned - original, fresh/unusual characters. Like Aeonid Thiel from 30k - same goals as the rest of the legion, but going against the grain to get things done. Or the psyker who went against the edict of Nikaea to save his buddies, but got exiled as a result. A lot more mature than just going all "That guy's power level is over 9000, he's made of pure Win. He's awesome by doing what everyone else is doing, just better.". Like a lot of the GK stuff - everyone is 100% pure and heroic, except for the characters, they're even purer and more heroic than that.

[Robbienw]

Also doesn't make sense for everyone to turn into a primaris when we still have powerful existing classic marine weapons and warmachines which have not been made obsolete by anything.

[Captain Idaho]

What doesn't make sense to me is just how powerful extra they've made Marines. In the background we always had Marines overcoming more powerful enemies through various means. So these extra tough and powerful Marines are doing what exactly that their brothers didn't already do?

[Robbienw]

What doesn't make sense to me is just how powerful extra they've made Marines. In the background we always had Marines overcoming more powerful enemies through various means. So these extra tough and powerful Marines are doing what exactly that their brothers didn't already do?

 

You are right, marines were consistently shown that way in the fluff. 

 

They are just putting forward primaris as 'these are marines +1 you must want to buy them because they are more powerful than your current marines!'.  Which doesn't work and leads to backlash.

 

If they had put them forward instead as a new type of marine who has advantages and disadvantages compared to the standard, i think people in general may have been more accepting towards the fluff side of things.

[MajorNese]

What doesn't make sense to me is just how powerful extra they've made Marines. In the background we always had Marines overcoming more powerful enemies through various means. So these extra tough and powerful Marines are doing what exactly that their brothers didn't already do?

Exchanging regular plot armour for "they're designed for this" plot armour.

 

Yes, it makes in-universe sense to technically improve Astartes to beat the other Astartes with the spikey/demonic/mutated improvements. Doing a 10k year retcon of "They've been ordered a long time ago" seems excessive, but they had to tie it to a primarch who wasn't running around for all that time, given that the releases were clustered together and the whole Ultima Founding thing.

 

And yes, once the process becomes safe enough, it actually makes sense to upgrade those existing marines who are okay with it. Just in a measured pace - you can only operate on a certain number in a certain time before it is rushed to unsafe levels, and more urgent things like active warzones delay it further. But if there's a choice between contemplating the codex for several weeks/months of transit, or growing bigger and getting a better gun, I'd imagine the latter sounds about right.

 

 

If they had put them forward instead as a new type of marine who has advantages and disadvantages compared to the standard, i think people in general may have been more accepting towards the fluff side of things.

This. Pretty much what I was saying about characters - there's no originality involved. They are simply Marines +1, with even less deviations (and thereby originality), with no unique traits other than being better, no character doing something outside the generic unit entry description. And certainly no downside, besides taking a purely statistical risk that just shows how irresponsible brave they are in taking this risk.

[Subtleknife]

Again that is a matter of perspective. Space Marines are already super human. They already can survive wounds and perform feats that are beyond feasible. They already crush a man's skull, so is the extra strength warranted.

 

That runs contrary to the evolution of war. This isnt subjective. If you have something that gives you an edge over your opponent you use it. You say they are already super human, but the enemies they fight are super human too. If you can produce a better tool that your economy and logistic chain can handle to combat these enemies you do. Edited August 15, 2019 by Subtleknife

[Marshal Rohr]

Primaris aren't marines plus one. They struggle against the Pure in the the Emperor's Spears the same way marines normally struggle against Chaos Marines. They are just marines with more stuff, an evolution over time. The game isnt the lore. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Marshal Rohr