Crossing the Rubicon Primaris

[MajorNese]

Primaris aren't marines plus one.

 

They struggle against the Pure in the the Emperor's Spears the same way marines normally struggle against Chaos Marines.

These two statements have nothing to do with each other, and may both be correct. I haven't read the Emperor's Spears yet - do they struggle because these Pure are even more powerful, or because being primaris puts them at a distinct disadvantage that oldmarines would have had no problem dealing with?

 

In the fluff and novels, there's always Conservation of Ninjutsu and Sliding Scale of Villain Threats, as it's called in TVTropes.

 

In short: You have one good guy fighting 1000 bad guys, the 1000 will be redshirts. You have 10 good guys fighting one bad guy, the latter will be a total OP badass.

And no matter how the numbers stack against each other, the bad side will always be superior on paper so the good guys can show off how heroic they are in facing them and how awesome they are in succeeding.

 

Likewise, if your good guys are Marines +1, your opponents will at least be at power level Marines +2. Marines +1 is the baseline here, just like Marines was the baseline before. There's a reason why pretty much every faction is absolutely OP in the lore - marines are so OP already, they would have an easy job otherwise...

Edited August 15, 2019 by MajorNese

[Subtleknife]

Never said they were marines plus 1 that would be custodes. However, they are improved over the original marines design otherwise there would be little point putting extra stuff in them. They are a better or more efficient tool. Edited August 15, 2019 by Subtleknife

[Ishagu]

I've read the novel. The problem the Emperor's Spears face has nothing to do with power but resources.

 

They are involved in a protracted war against a corrupting foe and have no support or re-enforcement after two centuries.

[Marshal Rohr]

Regardless of the trope requirements of compelling storytelling, Primaris are not marines +1 in the lore. It is only on the table top where their stats are obviously better. In Emperor's Spears the Primaris aren't even that much taller than the Pure or Amadeus, unlike their models that tower over the chaos and oldmarines. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[MajorNese]

Well, they are marines +1 in at least one publication - being basically just like the nearby oldmarines, but with default revival mechanism that comes into play repeatedly to show how they survive what others wouldn't have. But Custodes are an entirely different level, going through marines like marines would go through stormtroopers. 40k has a ridiculously large scale of power levels, the only thing consistent is that the protagonists' enemies are always one level higher.

 

And for the purpose of a story, it doesn't matter if the protagonists are guard, marines, marines +1 or marines +10 (custodes) - their enemies are still higher. Still not disproving the notion that primaris are marines +1.

[Ishagu]

Regardless of the trope requirements of compelling storytelling, Primaris are not marines +1 in the lore. It is only on the table top where their stats are obviously better. In Emperor's Spears the Primaris aren't even that much taller than the Pure or Amadeus, unlike their models that tower over the chaos and oldmarines.

Now this is not correct. There are dozens of examples where characters remark on the strength and resilience of Primaris in multiple different novels. Even the Death Guard are impressed with their hardiness.

 

No one is saying Primaris are a Ferrari and the Classic Astartes are a Lada, but there is a difference.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Ishagu

[Brother Tyler]

Let's stay on topic, folks. This topic is about:

 

So we've seen a few characters crossing the Rubicon primaris. Some are more or less who they were before (Tigurius), some have more significant t changes (calgar in gravis).

How do you guys see the rest of the marines in the chapter adapting to the post Rubicon reality? Do they put their meltagun in the relic armoury and embrace a new role or are we going to see Rubicon equivalents of classic marine unit styles? Our is the Rubicon only for a few significant characters?

 

The differences between legacy and Primaris Adeptus Astartes should be discussed in a separate topic.

[Blindhamster]

I think we'll see more primaris units come out over the next 2 years, and in that time pretty much every character thats going to cross the rubicon will have done so. I don't think classic marines will go anywhere for at least another 5 years, could be more though.

[Robbienw]

I wonder if we will see some chaos marines who have managed to capture some Primaris making technology and have rubiconed themselves?

 

Nothing to stop it working on them as well - if they can get hold of the requisite technology.

 

Obviously it means getting into a loyalist base, ship, or mechanicus facility, which is not easy. But such things have happened in the past (hydra cordatus and the night lords/red corsairs raid on Vilamus for example), so it could happen.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Robbienw

[Ishagu]

That's completely possible on the lore but I doubt it will ever happen in terms of models.

 

GW is working hard to make the factions distinct. And I doubt people want to go back to identical armies, except one is spiky.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Theres nothing saying that going through the rubicon actually addressed deficiencies in geneseed in existing marines though is there?

 

Only brand new primaris marines have their implants at full capacity, existing SM -> Primaris get the benefit of more strength, bigger size and new organs but redundant organs still stay redundant?

[Robbienw]

Theres nothing saying that going through the rubicon actually addressed deficiencies in geneseed in existing marines though is there?

 

Only brand new primaris marines have their implants at full capacity, existing SM -> Primaris get the benefit of more strength, bigger size and new organs but redundant organs still stay redundant?

 

Not sure.

 

If they get the primaris geneseed as part of the procedure, presumably they could get everything working.  Unless they didn't have the defective organs installed to begin with anyway of course.

 

If they still have the original geneseed then possibly not.

 

The description of calgars rubiconning didn't say if his geneseed was replaced or not. 

[Dracos]

Calling it .... Shrike will NOT cross the Rubicon. 

[Captain Idaho]

Shrike is a candidate for an unfortunate but heroic death and replacement with a Phobos Primaris character with near identical back story (every Raven Guard GW writes about seems the same).

[Rik Lightstar]

Shrike is a candidate for an unfortunate but heroic death and replacement with a Phobos Primaris character with near identical back story (every Raven Guard GW writes about seems the same).

That's because all Raven Guard ARE they same according to most players and people in forums, they're super sneaky uber-ninjas who can ONLY be represented properly with Jump Packs and Lightning Claws (which was only a thing when Shrike arrived).

 

White Scars aren't hit and run specialists with a preference for mechanised infantry, bikes and fast vehicles anymore,they're the moustachioed biker Chapter and anything else is "betraying the fans".

 

Salamanders aren't master artisans with a slight affinity for heat based weapons and a dislike of antigrav tech, they're now the "lol-flames Marines".

 

Whenever GW try to drag them all back on track to being codex adherent with a little bit of variation fans have a meltdown.

 

Rik

[Kriegsmacht]

In my opinion i'd be more interested in reading or hearing about a Character refusing to cross the Rubicon for one reason or another instead of the ones doing it because awesome.

[Rik Lightstar]

In my opinion i'd be more interested in reading or hearing about a Character refusing to cross the Rubicon for one reason or another instead of the ones doing it because awesome.

What reason though?

 

1) Tech-Heresy?

- Nope, Cawl is an Arch-Magos of the Mechanicum and RG is the Emperor's Regent, they're both totally authorised to sanction it.

 

2) The risks?

- Astartes should fear nothing, and the rewards are potentially great so that's out.

 

3) I wanna use my old wargear?

- Astartes train with every weapon available, sure they have favourites, but with the benefits of becoming Primaris that's a pretty small loss.

 

4) I wanna ride in a LandRaider/Stormraven /DropPod/Rhino or on a Bike?

- This is more of a "meta" reason, it's out of character, they'd accept Impulsors and Repulsors as alternatives.

 

5) But I'm already a Chapter Master and therefore a Bad-Mother-Hubbard?

- Here's the chance to get so Bad that even Samuel L Mother Hubbard Jackson will be jealous.

 

6) It means they'll be out of "action" for a period?

- There's frequently long periods of Warp Travel between deployments and Primaris heal even faster than standard Astartes, so they'd not be out of action for long if they plan it.

 

So again, why WOULDN'T they go in for the upgrade?

 

Rik

[Morovir]

As the Adeptus Mechanicus is technically a sovereign yet allied empire, Roboute Guilliman is not authorised to sanction it. Neither is Cawl, as one tech-priest, even an Archmagos, cannot determine whether or not something is tech-heresy. Indeed, in Gav Thorpe's novel Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah, it is mentioned by the main characters that Mars has filed accusations of tech-heresy against Cawl, whereas Metallica has not.

[Kriegsmacht]

That actually sounds interesting and provides some conflict of interest.

[Robbienw]

So again, why WOULDN'T they go in for the upgrade?

 

Rik

Most likely if they were ordered not to.

 

Not all chapter masters are going to want to lose 60% of their standard marines if they allow mass transitioning. They need standard marines to operate non-Primaris gear, use highly effective weapons that there is no new Cawl equivalent for, continue to use terminator armour, continue to use airmobile close combat troops etc.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

It's something they will continually gloss over until/if ever they make direct replacements for old marines. Or they could just get rid of their bolter and pick up a bolt rifle and never look back.

 

For my primaris army I like to put the odd beaky or old school helm in to represent a dude that has crossed over and is now in the new squad formations.

 

I believe both Calgar and Kor'sarro kept their original iconic weapons. It'd be strange to abandon an old comrade like your trusty weapon just because you're a Primaris now, so your comment about picking a bolt rifle and abandoning your bolter made me try to think of famous characters who use classically non-Primaris wargear, like a master-crafted bolter. If Forge World ever decides to do things like a Primaris Lias Issodon, there's the chance to keep the spirit of the old Marines alive within the Primaris range by retaining non-Primaris wargear such as bolters and lightning claws.

[Marshal Rohr]

He abandoned his Land Raider

[Ishagu]

He abandoned his Land Raider

Maybe it was destroyed. Maybe he has a blinged up Repulsor now.

[Acebaur]

There is no fluff reason on this earth that could make me believe why a Primaris can't ride in a LR when it can carry CENTURIONS :lol:

[Marshal Rohr]

There is no fluff reason on this earth that could make me believe why a Primaris can't ride in a LR when it can carry CENTURIONS :lol:

Because there is no fluff reason :D Maybe one day GW will lull their heads out and let them ride in real marine vehicles again.