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Colour Scheme Matters - Or Does it?

WYSIWYG

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#1
Cpt_Reaper

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So I have noticed the topic of colour schemes come up recently both online and in my local gaming groups. Particularly if and when the colour of ones models matter in a rules sense. So I'd like to have a discussion on this subject with the Frater of B&C as we cover a wide range of play styles and local metas and all those other things that affect how we enjoy the game.
 
Before 8th Edition brought in Keywords and locked Sub-Faction Characters, Relics, Traits etc, the colour of your army had no bearing on the rules you used. The rules you acquired came from the Characters you included (think the 5th Edition Space Marine codex).
 
Now, it seems GW is trying to make certain colour schemes matter. This is exceedingly clear with the upcoming Space marine codex but can be retroactively applied to other codexes of 8th edition.
 
My example is thus: in the Dark Angels codex it states:
  • "If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels Successor Chapter, simply substitute the 'Dark Angels' keyword on every datasheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor.
  • Note you cannot do this for named Characters. Azrael is the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels - not any Successor Chapters
  • Successor Chapters may only give one Character a Heavenfall Blade
I have been pulled up on this on multiple occasions in many varied groups I am a part of, pointing out that as my models are in the correct Dark angels colours I cannot claim the use of the Dark Angels keyword and thus am restricted by the above rulings.
 
It seems that a similar thing is being brought in with the new base Codex in that if you don't clearly have Ultramarines but want access to everything save for named characters you can select a trait that means your Chapter is Ultramarines in all but name. With older codexes with the classic 5-6 sub-faction traits it says you can simply choose the trait that matches your army with the implication that if you play a faction with rules you use those rules.
 
I myself now restrict my own options if the codex I am playing tells me to. My Chaos Space Marines gets full access to Iron Warriors relics as does my Dark Eldar Kabal and Guard Regiment, none of which are official colour schemes, but my Dark Angels Successor only gets a single Heavenfall Blade for my relic. If I was to face an army painted as X but using the rules of Y when X has rules I'd ask my opponent to justify that choice. If they were unable to do so satisfactorily I'd request they use the rules their faction has or I would leave the table.
 
So I ask this: In 8th edition does the colour of your model count for WYSIWYG or not? Would you enforce or be happy to play within restrictions because of the colour of your army?

#2
EnsignJoker

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No it does not matter what color the models are. Unless a tournament specifically says it does.

I personally don’t care what color your toys are when we play so long as I know what’s what.

Edited by EnsignJoker, 13 August 2019 - 11:05 PM.

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#3
MegaVolt87

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Sounds like you have the kind of group that expects to fight DA if they are painted as DA. Nothing wrong with that, also nothing wrong with proxying and being what you like either. Play someone more chill or ask the WYSIWYG person to pay pal you the money so you can meet their rivet counter standards if you aren't a rivet counter if they are being really precious about it/ harassing you. I am a WYSIWYG person myself, but I don't brow beat others to my point of view- I stay in my own lane with others of a like mind. 


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#4
Bryan Blaire

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No it does not matter what color the models are. Unless a tournament specifically says it does.

I personally don’t care what color your toys are when we play so long as I know what’s what.

Exactly this. Unless there's an actual rule written into the game, color scheme doesn't matter (as in the rule in the rulebook would have to state "If you paint your force as X, you must use X rules. You cannot vary from GW's color schemes if you want to use rules for official schemes." or some such - at which point everyone that plays me better be able to paint to 'Eavy Metal standard, because that's the scheme in the books - yes, anyone could be that absurd).

Some people like to try variations on schemes as well, who's going to step up and be the petty person to say "Oh, oh no, you painted your Ultramarines icons in bleached bone", "Your Blood Angels have too much gold on them", "Your Raven Guard don't use blue highlights and don't follow the Codex identification scheme" so you can't play them as that Chapter.

WYSIWYG is also not a game rule.

Yes, it may be fair sportsmanship and some tournaments might enforce it, but it isn't a game rule found in the BRB.

The key behind the keyword system is that it prevents you from mixing and matching named characters, relics, Strategems, unique Warlord Traits, and all the other Chapter accoutrement.

For argument's sake - I didn't buy the Blood Ravens WD, so if I show up with a Blood Ravens styled army with some minor paint variations and let you know that they fight like Salamanders, you better jog on rather than telling me that you are going to loan me your WD or that I have to use some other rules - I'd rather not game with you, because at that point you're just making up your own rules.

In the end, keep it consistent, be a good sport and don't try to cheat your opponent.

--------------

Now, if we are playing a narrative game where obviously the Chapter involved is a key point of the story, then sure, you need to use whatever rules makes sense for that Chapter participating - but that's almost already independent of how the models are painted unless you purposefully set the story for that paint scheme that's on the Marines, or you incorporated how the Marines are schemed in to set the rules and story beforehand anyway.
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#5
Cpt_Reaper

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Thanks for the replies.

 

I know I hold my own gameplay to a very high standard so as to never come across a situation where my opponent has an issue with it. If my opponent isn't having fun then I feel awful. It does stem from it being pointed out that the Dark Angels codex has a very clear restriction for successors and I didn't have an argument against it. And this occurred with multiple local groups (some of which don't agree with each other with other aspects of the game.)

 

Best case scenario is "once bitten, twice shy". Worst case is I have added another level of LAAC to my play style to please others.



#6
General Strike

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Doesn't matter to me, I can barely identify xenos stuff anyway, doesn't hurt me if your black Templars are orange.

Does it say anywhere that they have to be a certain paint scheme though, or just the keywords have to work? Dark Angel's used to be Black after all, so should they be black, green, white, or what? How many different shades of grey blue have the wolves been? Remember blood Angel's being basically orange? I firmly believe the only thing that matters is what you declare them to be, and that you are consistent in what's what. If you use missiles on a stick as a thunder Hammer, I expect all missiles on a stick to be that.

Edited by General Strike, 13 August 2019 - 11:36 PM.

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#7
Brother Tyler

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This all comes down to the setting and the group. For most of us, in most cases, color scheme won't matter.

For some with a more historical wargaming "purist" attitude, color scheme might matter enough to limit play. This type of player is much more likely to stick to historically appropriate miniature appearance (e.g., "Those aren't Romans of the late Republic! They're a Middle Byzantine army!"). This isn't necessarily "wrong" in that one of the goals of some historical wargamers is accuracy. Whether or not they apply that logic to a fictionalized setting, though, is controversial. I tend to fall in this camp when it comes to how I model/paint my own armies, but I don't hold my opponents to that standard.

Then there are those that have a narrow interpretation of the lore and what appearance is allowed, ignoring the loose canon of the game. It's more of a problem with lore and DIY development online, but sometimes rears its ugly head on the tabletop.

Lastly are those settings where some limitations are enforced, based on the interpretation of whoever is in charge. Most of these will be tournaments, but there might be organized campaigns that have such requirements for some reason, sacrificing fun and participation for a more strict interpretation/application of rules. I don't recall any tournaments in which I've participated that enforced such narrow views on things, and I can't imagine wanting to. YMMV.
 

For argument's sake - I didn't buy the Blood Ravens WD, so if I show up with a Blood Ravens styled army with some minor paint variations and let you know that they fight like Salamanders, you better jog on rather than telling me that you are going to loan me your WD or that I have to use some other rules - I'd rather not game with you, because at this point you're just making up your own rules.


Luckily for you, the Blood Ravens can use the Salamanders Chapter Tactics. msn-wink.gif
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#8
General Strike

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I mean, there was a white dwarf article on doing camo on marines, it was done on some Infiltrators or Reivers, and the only ultramarine part was one shoulder pad. Would those not be Ultras because they aren't in full blue?

#9
Kinstryfe

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If you're clear about it, I don't think it matters. If I show up for a game and you tell me turn 2 "oh no these Ultramarines are really White Scars", it's a problem. If you show up and one detachment of your orange Marines are White Scars, one is Salamanders, and one is using some successor rules and nobody can tell which is which, it's a problem. I don't think it's right to require X paint scheme for X army because, as people have brought up, it's only a matter of time before people get petty and ridiculous with their demands.
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#10
Ficinus

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My feelings are if you want to paint your Ultramarines orange or your Dark Angels purple, go ahead, it's your hobby. However, if you have what is clearly an Ultramarine force (blue with white U's all over the place), but are playing it as Blood Angels or a Dark Angel army (with robes, swords, and wings on green armour) but decide to run it as Ravenguard, I'd probably look a bit cock-eyed at that. I'd still play it and wouldn't complain, but I would be thinking "I wonder why they chose to switch chapters? Did they intentionally model this way or is it to power game?"
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#11
Cpt_Reaper

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You put it into words better than I did Ficinus. Custom colours mean you can do whatever,but the flip side is the example you have given from First Founding Chapters.



#12
Rogue

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But why does painting marines in 'standard' colour schemes mean that people can't be flexible with them?

I have a marine army built up over 25+ years. As it happens, they're in my own scheme, so they can be whatever I like rules-wise (and over the years they've been Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and entirely their own thing during the traits era) - I change things every now and then for variety.

But what if 12-year-old me had painted my first terminators as Blood Angels like on the box? Am I stuck playing only Blood Angels for the rest of my life? I don't particularly have the desire or the resources to own or paint multiple marine armies just to try out different rules, especially when those rules all come from the same codex and use the same miniatures.

I mean, no-one is asking me to own multiple Cult armies in different colours for when I want to switch between four-armed emperor and twisted helix to try things out. Maybe some people do go that way, but I can't think that I've ever encountered it.

Edited by Rogue, 14 August 2019 - 05:36 AM.

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#13
sfPanzer

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No it does not matter what color the models are. Unless a tournament specifically says it does.

I personally don’t care what color your toys are when we play so long as I know what’s what.

 

^this

 

Though be prepared that you get some weird looks from me if your obviously painted Ultramarines or Raven Guard or Space Wolves or whatever are supposed to Blood Angels or whatever.

 

 

But why does painting marines in 'standard' colour schemes mean that people can't be flexible with them?

I have a marine army built up over 25+ years. As it happens, they're in my own scheme, so they can be whatever I like rules-wise (and over the years they've been Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and entirely their own thing during the traits era) - I change things every now and then for variety.

But what if 12-year-old me had painted my first terminators as Blood Angels like on the box? Am I stuck playing only Blood Angels for the rest of my life? I don't particularly have the desire or the resources to own or paint multiple marine armies just to try out different rules, especially when those rules all come from the same codex and use the same miniatures.

I mean, no-one is asking me to own multiple Cult armies in different colours for when I want to switch between four-armed emperor and twisted helix to try things out. Maybe some people do go that way, but I can't think that I've ever encountered it.

 

Same reason as WYSIWYG. It's gentlemans agreement usually. Make it as less confusing as possible for your opponent to reduce stressful moments and general negativity during the game.
Also because some people actually care about the fluff (ridiculous, I know!). My Knights of Baal are a Blood Angels successor and will always be Blood Angels successors regardless of whether the vanilla Codex rules are better and more interesting right now or not.

About your 12 year old self ... well we all make mistakes when we are young. :P On a more serious note, you just said that you've been building your army for 25+ years. I'm sure if you wanted you would've found the ressources to either get the same models again and paint them in the chapter colours you actually want to play or to simply strip and repaint them (yes, that's a thing and not particularly difficult).
Actually the same thing goes for every other faction as well. It's just that the heraldry of xenos armies are usually less known to people who don't play those so you have a bit more freedom there.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#14
sfPanzer

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I mean, there was a white dwarf article on doing camo on marines, it was done on some Infiltrators or Reivers, and the only ultramarine part was one shoulder pad. Would those not be Ultras because they aren't in full blue?

 

Of course they'd be Ultramarines if they follow the Ultras heraldry. Camo is perfectly fine (note: just being painted in a different bright colour is not camo) but with a shoulder pad in blue and showing the Ultramarine symbol it's obvious they are Ultramarines for anybody who would look at them.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#15
Rik Lightstar

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The big thing for me is that each subfaction you put on the table has to be immediately recognisable as different.

If you're running 2 different craft worlds for example, then they need to be in distinct colour schemes.

The same for marines. And if you're gonna have some models painted as Ultramarines and some as Blood Angels, then if there are any Ultramarines rules in play then they should be affecting the blue marines.

Rik
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#16
Slasher956

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https://warhammerwor...s_Pack_2019.pdf

 

Page 3 of this document says that colour schemes matter...

 

Now the key points here is that its 

i) GWs GT rule pack

ii) its a strong recommendation not a flat out rule. Ok, its expected... so is a flat out rule!

iii) keep sub-factions identifiable on the table top....

 

So my take away from this is that GW is saying even in a tournament situation you can in some circumstances* run who ever as what ever so long as you are open and clear about it.  However to make things simpler for people you've not played before please use the rules specific for the colour scheme if you have painted your guys in that colour scheme.

 

 

* ie clear it with the TO first tongue.png

 

 

 

 If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme. For example, if you have painted your models as Salamanders, your army must have the Salamanders keyword. If you have created your own unique colour scheme, then you may give them any keyword that you wish.

 

Note to self... reread what you are referring to before posting tongue.png


Edited by Slasher956, 14 August 2019 - 06:42 AM.

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#17
MARK0SIAN

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My feelings are if you want to paint your Ultramarines orange or your Dark Angels purple, go ahead, it's your hobby. However, if you have what is clearly an Ultramarine force (blue with white U's all over the place), but are playing it as Blood Angels or a Dark Angel army (with robes, swords, and wings on green armour) but decide to run it as Ravenguard, I'd probably look a bit cock-eyed at that. I'd still play it and wouldn't complain, but I would be thinking "I wonder why they chose to switch chapters? Did they intentionally model this way or is it to power game?"


These are essentially my feelings on the matter. A huge draw for me is the spectacle on the table. I would much rather play a well painted army pretending to be another subfaction than a lazily painted or unpainted army in the correct colours.

But again, if you had a clearly ultramarine army and were playing them as Blood Angels I might raise an eye brow but wouldn’t really be bothered.

#18
sfPanzer

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unpainted army in the correct colours.

How? :D


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#19
Closet Skeleton

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The terrible successor chapter rules in the Blood and Dark Angel books are pretty much repudiated by the new marine book. DA and BA will have to wait for their new books but GW have at least recognized how bad that was.

 

 

I change things every now and then for variety.

But what if 12-year-old me had painted my first terminators as Blood Angels like on the box? Am I stuck playing only Blood Angels for the rest of my life?

 

I don't think your perspective is necessarily wrong but there are a lot of people on this board who have chosen to be stuck playing the rules associated with the chapter they chose when they were 12 and are incredibly grumpy when a codex comes out that makes it more viable to switch things up.

 

There are also a lot of people who do own multiple marine armies to use multiple rule sets.

 

 

 

 

unpainted army in the correct colours.

How? biggrin.png

 

 

They're the Grey plastic chapter.

 

The easy to build stuff comes in blue so they're illegal to use as anything other than an Ultramarine until they're undercoated i guess.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 14 August 2019 - 07:50 AM.

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#20
Slasher956

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originally I painted my marines blue... then when I got the CA WS list I overpainted them shadow grey for my own colour scheme so I wouldnt be stuck using one chapter... all 70 odd marines! (was off 150 of them when I sold them 3-4 years ago)

 

My Eldar started off as Ultwe but with aspect warriors they can be any craftworld anyway....but it means I cant use multiple craftoworld detachments at the same time.

 

My sisters are all Order of our Martyed lady... mainly because until the beta there was no difference.... toying with the idea of painting the black armour another colour so I can use them as other orders....will have to see what the codex is like to see if I can be asked!



#21
MARK0SIAN

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unpainted army in the correct colours.

How? :D

An unsuccessful attempt by Cawl at Primaris Grey Knights? 😂
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#22
Ficinus

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But why does painting marines in 'standard' colour schemes mean that people can't be flexible with them?

I have a marine army built up over 25+ years. As it happens, they're in my own scheme, so they can be whatever I like rules-wise (and over the years they've been Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and entirely their own thing during the traits era) - I change things every now and then for variety.

But what if 12-year-old me had painted my first terminators as Blood Angels like on the box? Am I stuck playing only Blood Angels for the rest of my life? I don't particularly have the desire or the resources to own or paint multiple marine armies just to try out different rules, especially when those rules all come from the same codex and use the same miniatures.

I mean, no-one is asking me to own multiple Cult armies in different colours for when I want to switch between four-armed emperor and twisted helix to try things out. Maybe some people do go that way, but I can't think that I've ever encountered it.


I think it comes down to how I read the intent of my opponent. If someone is using what are clearly Blood Angels or Ultramarines as Dark Angels, well, why? If someone went through the effort of painting their army to fit one chapter, has chapter specific shoulder pads and/or decals, why then play them as something different? If this occurred at an event, with someone I don't know, I'd immediately assume they didn't really care about the lore and story and were power gaming. That might not be fair, but it is what I'd assume. If it was someone at my local store, hopefully they would explain it or justify it, say that they just wanted to test something or were getting bored with whatever their original chapter was, which I can understand.

As to the xenos, yeah, the color schemes just aren't as prominent in the fluff. Other than Eldar craftworlds, I couldn't tell you any xenos color schemes off the top of my head. It might not be fair, but it just is that way. The craftworlds also have units that are so affiliated with their different fighting styles, I don't think it would bother me to see a yellow and blue all guardian army as Ulthwe, since I associate Iyenden more with wraith constructs than yellow and blue. But that is just me.

As to a person wanting to change their army, maybe do test games with the old chapter colors, but after that repaint it. As stated above, it isn't that hard, especially in this modern era of airbrushes and contrast paints.

#23
Trevak Dal

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My feelings are if you want to paint your Ultramarines orange or your Dark Angels purple, go ahead, it's your hobby. However, if you have what is clearly an Ultramarine force (blue with white U's all over the place), but are playing it as Blood Angels or a Dark Angel army (with robes, swords, and wings on green armour) but decide to run it as Ravenguard, I'd probably look a bit cock-eyed at that. I'd still play it and wouldn't complain, but I would be thinking "I wonder why they chose to switch chapters? Did they intentionally model this way or is it to power game?"

That's why you keep stuff super generic and use the cash-awesome Mk4 or mk3 Marines to build your army. You can play anything that isn't specialized.

Edit: and create your own chapter. Like the Steel Pangolins, Blood Lemurs, Octopi of Woe, The Wu Tang Clan, the West Side Connection, the Blues Brothers, War Frogs, Battle Walruses, Cerulean Armadillos. Heck The Poe Boys could be a Ravenguard successor who aside from being space Marines specialize in slam poetry.

Edited by Trevak Dal, 14 August 2019 - 09:34 AM.

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#24
WarriorFish

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I think that for all GW has said over the years most people generally ignore it and treat counts-as more directly? As in my DIY are Iron Hands fully and completely in the rules, and have been for a very long time and that has never been a problem, same as my DIY CSM use Emperor's Children rules and always have done.

 

While I'm sure that there are some who may change CTs and the like, I'm also sure that it's not a big problem - and if it is, nobody can make you play a game msn-wink.gif


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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#25
Rogue

Rogue

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I don't think your perspective is necessarily wrong but there are a lot of people on this board who have chosen to be stuck playing the rules associated with the chapter they chose when they were 12 and are incredibly grumpy when a codex comes out that makes it more viable to switch things up.


But why should that make anyone grumpy? I mean, if someone chooses to stick with, say, Blood Angels through thick and thin, good for them. That's their choice. But if I don't, and want to run them as a red Ultramarine successor for a bit, why not? Why should me having the flexibility to do that matter to other people?

Edited by Rogue, 14 August 2019 - 10:33 AM.

  • Juggernut, Volt and Maritn like this

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So far this year: patriarch, abominant, iconward, five acolytes, clamavus, five aberrants, eight genestealers, and two leman russ tanks painted; 117 marines and a stormtalon based






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