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The Cicatrix Maledictum and the speed of light

fluff physics

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#1
toaae

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So, while contemplating the fluff of my WAAAGH!!! and the sub-sector it affects, I came to the realization that Gork's Grin, or the Great Rift/Cicatrix Maledictum to you non-greenskins, would not be visible to most of the galaxy. After all, our galaxy is like 105,000 light years wide, so it would stand to reason that after 200-400 years (or whatever it's been), only a small fraction of the galaxy on either side of the rift would have light reaching it for it to be visible.

Or would it? Afterall, it's literally the realm of nightmares, chaos, and unreality spilling out across realspace. Could it be visible by something other than light?

Assuming it isn't visible by weird, 40k-not-magic-but-come-on-it's-magic logic, does most of the galaxy even grasp what has happened? Anything that's touched on this? I just started Spears of the Emperor, which I know is on the Nihilus side of the Imperium, so please avoid major spoilers from that if it covers it.

 

----------------------

 

A little more of my thought process: My fluff takes place in a sub-sector on the far edge of the galaxy, out near the Ghoul Stars. While thinking about how the chapters involved in my story would take Primaris, I realized that they probably would have no idea that the galaxy is torn by a rift. They'd know from Navigators and Psykers that the astronomicon was gone and communication was difficult, but if they had a moment with Custodes like the Blood Ravens do in the story in July's White Dwarf, would they even know about the rift? Would it just be a rumored thing, passed on by the Primarch's representatives? Would they believe it, or grasp what it is?


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#2
Marshal Rohr

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They definitely wouldn’t see it farther than 200 years away

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#3
Bryan Blaire

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If a god(dess) can be birthed in the Warp only 10,000 years previous and that birth goes all the way back in time to the beginning as if it always was, I'm pretty sure the Great Rift is capable of being visible at any time GW needs it to be, even if the light had to leave before the realspace time event of the creation of said Rift - however, would it actually need to be visible (and considering the distance away, would it actually be on every planet/the edge of the galaxy)?

The psychic emanations travel faster than light from all appearances, so I would think the terror/other bad emotions/psychic responses it caused would have been proof enough.
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#4
sfPanzer

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One can see the Warprift everywhere plot demands. It literally breaks reality. ^^


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#5
Marshal Rohr

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They cannot see the rift at the edge of the Galaxy for the same reason we cannot see the center of our own galaxy when we look up into night sky. Distance + Time + Orientation + Stellar Phenomenon + a million different other reasons covered by SCIENCE!. The rift is a local phenomenon. It isn't visible or impacting the Halo Stars region. 


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 14 August 2019 - 11:44 AM.

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#6
sfPanzer

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Uh you realise you can't argue with science when the phenomenom is supernatural, right? 


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#7
Marshal Rohr

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Uh, you realize at that distance its imperceptible to the human eye.


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#8
Brother Casman

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[snip]
Assuming it isn't visible by weird, 40k-not-magic-but-come-on-it's-magic logic, does most of the galaxy even grasp what has happened? Anything that's touched on this? I just started Spears of the Emperor, which I know is on the Nihilus side of the Imperium, so please avoid major spoilers from that if it covers it.
[snip]


Well, the Imperium Nihilus is aware that something's happened - one of the results of the opening of the Great Rift is that the Light of the Astronomicon was blocked. Given this, we could probably determine that information travelling in the Warp is faster than light in real-space. Further, we're told (and occasionally shown) that the forces of Chaos immediately capitalized on the Noctis AEterna, attacking vulnerable systems everywhere. I think we can conclude that, since it's a supernatural phenomenon (in the classical sense), the Great Rift is "visible" to the warp-sensitive anywhere in the galaxy. (To some degree, anyway).

That'd be terrifying, really... A great, ragged wound in reality itself.
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#9
sfPanzer

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Uh, you realize at that distance its imperceptible to the human eye.


You do realise the human eye follows the laws of science which are completely irrelevant when it comes to the warp? You try to apply logic to something that defies logic. GW can do literally everything they want with the great rift to fit it any possible plotline.


Edited by sfPanzer, 14 August 2019 - 12:05 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#10
Marshal Rohr

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No, they really can't. 


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#11
sfPanzer

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Yeah this is going nowhere with you.


Edited by sfPanzer, 14 August 2019 - 12:22 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#12
Marshal Rohr

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It is going nowhere because Games Workshop has a clear demarcation between realspace, where physics can be effected by the warp while still applying the laws of physics, and warp space and its breaches where physics may not apply. For instance, a rogue psyker may levitate themselves by using their psychic ability to interact with gravity, but not just because they can actually fly. For the Rift to be visible in the Halo Stars the light of the rift would have to not only move faster than normal light, it would need to move significantly faster to cross the width of the galaxy in both directions. Now, lets say it does move faster than light and everyone can see a purple nebula thing in the sky. Depending on how far away from that nebula thing you are, the thinner it becomes. This is called perspective. The center of the galaxy (where the rift is) is very far away from the edge of the galaxy. Therefore, things in the center of the galaxy would be very, imperceptibly thin or not visible at all to a normal human standing on a planet at the edge of the galaxy. 


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#13
Iron Father Ferrum

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You assume it's emitting light, ie photons, that obey the laws of physics. What if it's not? What if the "light" it emits is actually Warp emanations that don't care about the laws of physics and are visible at a greater distance because they move magnitudes faster than C?

That's sfPanzer's point. It's a supernatural phenomenon and we don't know if it or its emanations bow to the rules of the physical realm.

Edited by Iron Father Ferrum, 14 August 2019 - 12:45 PM.

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#14
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#15
Marshal Rohr

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You assume it's emitting light, ie photons, that obey the laws of physics. What if it's not? What if the "light" it emits is actually Warp emanations that don't care about the laws of physics and are visible at a greater distance because they move magnitudes faster than C?

That's sfPanzer's point. It's a supernatural phenomenon and we don't know if it or its emanations bow to the rules of the physical realm.

 

If it isn't a Photon how can someone see it at all? Human eyes can only see photons absorbed by the rods/cones in the eye. If it emanates something other than a Photon, we definitely cannot see it. I'm not busting your nuts here. The people out in Nihilus don't need to see the rift. We know the milky way is above us even when we can't see it because of light pollution. It doesn't add anything and only begs questions if you can see it everywhere. If it was everywhere it should be a galaxy wide storm, like the Ruinstorm, not a 'rift'. They chose a rift, so it will have to obey stellar geography. I know I cannot get to England without crossing the ocean. I cannot see the ocean from where I am standing. That doesnt lessen the necessity of me having to cross the ocean, nor does it mean nothing from the ocean can get to me, just because I can't see it. 


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 14 August 2019 - 12:57 PM.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#16
sfPanzer

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You assume it's emitting light, ie photons, that obey the laws of physics. What if it's not? What if the "light" it emits is actually Warp emanations that don't care about the laws of physics and are visible at a greater distance because they move magnitudes faster than C?

That's sfPanzer's point. It's a supernatural phenomenon and we don't know if it or its emanations bow to the rules of the physical realm.

 

If it isn't a Photon how can someone see it at all? Human eyes can only see photons absorbed by the rods/cones in the eye. If it emanates something other than a Photon, we definitely cannot see it. I'm not busting your nuts here. The people out in Nihilus don't need to see the rift. We know the milky way is above us even when we can't see it because of light pollution. It doesn't add anything and only begs questions if you can see it everywhere. If it was everywhere it should be a galaxy wide storm, like the Ruinstorm, not a 'rift'. They chose a rift, so it will have to obey stellar geography. 

 

 

Okay one last try from my side trying to explain it to you as simple as possible: "Magic". It obeys the laws of science until it does not. That's how the warp has always worked.


Edited by sfPanzer, 14 August 2019 - 12:59 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#17
Marshal Rohr

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You assume it's emitting light, ie photons, that obey the laws of physics. What if it's not? What if the "light" it emits is actually Warp emanations that don't care about the laws of physics and are visible at a greater distance because they move magnitudes faster than C?

That's sfPanzer's point. It's a supernatural phenomenon and we don't know if it or its emanations bow to the rules of the physical realm.

 

If it isn't a Photon how can someone see it at all? Human eyes can only see photons absorbed by the rods/cones in the eye. If it emanates something other than a Photon, we definitely cannot see it. I'm not busting your nuts here. The people out in Nihilus don't need to see the rift. We know the milky way is above us even when we can't see it because of light pollution. It doesn't add anything and only begs questions if you can see it everywhere. If it was everywhere it should be a galaxy wide storm, like the Ruinstorm, not a 'rift'. They chose a rift, so it will have to obey stellar geography. 

 

 

Okay one last try from my side trying to explain it to you as simple as possible: "Magic".

 

 

 

 

 

If the Rift does not emanate photons, the population of Vigilus wouldn't be forbidden from looking at it. The act of forbidding the population from looking at it means that it has a set location in space/time which you can not see when not looking at it. That means it uses magic photons that move faster than the speed of light, because the things it emanates are received and processed by the human eye, then it follows the rules for being perceived by the human eye over distances.


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 14 August 2019 - 01:05 PM.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#18
Brother Casman

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Perhaps, they don't see it with their eyes, but rather their latent psychic ability? Humanity is said to be growing more psychic by the day. Of course, this does raise questions about races like the T'au, but the Great Rift terminates fairly close to the T'au homeworlds, so they can probably see it in the normal fashion.
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#19
sfPanzer

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I'm out of this argument. This is like trying to explain the colour yellow to a blind person. Either you can think abstract or you can't.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#20
Marshal Rohr

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Perhaps, they don't see it with their eyes, but rather their latent psychic ability? Humanity is said to be growing more psychic by the day. Of course, this does raise questions about races like the T'au, but the Great Rift terminates fairly close to the T'au homeworlds, so they can probably see it in the normal fashion.

 

 

This was my thought as well. That it is similar to the way Perturabo can see the Eye of Terror, now matter where he is. If that is the case, I would hope they'd go into more detail because having a gigantic nebula in the sky over the whole galaxy doesn't make sense when they specifically make it look like a equatorial divide.

 

I'm out of this argument. This is like trying to explain the colour yellow to a blind person. Either you can think abstract or you can't.

 

Don't insult me by telling me I can't think abstractly just because I don't agree with you. 


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#21
Brother Casman

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[snip]
 
If the Rift does not emanate photons, the population of Vigilus wouldn't be forbidden from looking at it. The act of forbidding the population from looking at it means that it has a set location in space/time which you can not see when not looking at it. That means it uses magic photons that move faster than the speed of light, because the things it emanates are received and processed by the human eye, then it follows the rules for being perceived by the human eye over distances.


Well then, let's say it emits both regular photons, and psychic emanations. Someone on, let's say Macharia (after looking at the map), might not be able to physically see the Great Rift, but if they have some psychic ability, they may be able to "feel" it nonetheless, which their brain could interpret as a "flash of light" when they look core-ward?

(If I could assign a colour to the "flash of light", I'd choose octarine. msn-wink.gif )
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#22
Marshal Rohr

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[snip]
 
If the Rift does not emanate photons, the population of Vigilus wouldn't be forbidden from looking at it. The act of forbidding the population from looking at it means that it has a set location in space/time which you can not see when not looking at it. That means it uses magic photons that move faster than the speed of light, because the things it emanates are received and processed by the human eye, then it follows the rules for being perceived by the human eye over distances.


Well then, let's say it emits both regular photons, and psychic emanations. Someone on, let's say Macharia (after looking at the map), might not be able to physically see the Great Rift, but if they have some psychic ability, they may be able to "feel" it nonetheless, which their brain could interpret as a "flash of light" when they look core-ward?

(If I could assign a colour to the "flash of light", I'd choose octarine. msn-wink.gif )

 

 

Personally, I am looking at it from the distance point of view. The people way out in nowhere can't see it, but Baal? Caliban? Medusa? It looks like our Milky Way, but purpley/pink and moving way more than stuff in space should look like its moving. It also kind of makes for a cool frontier vibe, where the Astronomicon was always kind of flickering but still visible, like a candle in your neighbors windows. Then it just goes out. Not only does it go out, there are surprise demons everywhere. 


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 14 August 2019 - 01:25 PM.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#23
toaae

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=][=

 

Please don't de-rail the thread by bickering.

 

=][=

 

RE: Photons

Assuming the rift can be seen by a larger part of the galaxy than light-travel would allow, there's two major theories I've heard that make sense to me: Either the Rift, in it's unreality, proceeded to exist never and always when it appeared, causing the light from it to suddenly exist at all points in the galaxy when it appeared, making it visible; OR, the "light" from it is some kind of warp photons, that is perceptible to our eyes but doesn't follow the laws of physics (whether by speed or even needing to travel) and includes the madness-inducing qualities of the warp.


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IA: Dune Vipers
(work in progress; updated: 10/17/19, v.1)
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#24
Marshal Rohr

Marshal Rohr

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=][=

 

Please don't de-rail the thread by bickering.

 

=][=

 

RE: Photons

Assuming the rift can be seen by a larger part of the galaxy than light-travel would allow, there's two major theories I've heard that make sense to me: Either the Rift, in it's unreality, proceeded to exist never and always when it appeared, causing the light from it to suddenly exist at all points in the galaxy when it appeared, making it visible; OR, the "light" from it is some kind of warp photons, that is perceptible to our eyes but doesn't follow the laws of physics (whether by speed or even needing to travel) and includes the madness-inducing qualities of the warp.

 

The madness inducing qualities is a salient point, since we know looking at the rift does cause nightmares and madness. I'm still skeptical its visible everywhere though, as it has a physical quantity and spits things out. 


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#25
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

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One doesn't even need to look at the rift to suffer from it. I forgot in which book it was but when the rift appeared people immediately shut themselves in and were forbidden to look at the sky and they were still suffering from nightmares after days without being outside etc.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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