Inheritors of the Primarch vs Counts-as...

[Dracos]

The opening post is about paint scheme but it has devolved a bit and wysiwyg was brought up so now we're talking about orks instead of how the rules mean to treat alternate color schemes. ;(

[SkimaskMohawk]

It was a statement on "my ultramarines are dark angels". They're different factions, just like orks are.

 

What's the point of writing rules that say "use their first founding's trait" if they really intended for everyone to go "nah, they're actually that first founding chapter, now gimme guilliman and calgar because I deserve it"

Edited August 24, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Maritn]

At tournaments, most (every?) player expects WYSIWYG to be enforced.

 

How is requesting you follow paint schemes that represents your chapter any different from requesting you use the adequate bits to represent the weapons your models use?

"All my dudes are using keyword XXX and the appropriate rules."

 

vs

 

"This Heavy Bolter over here is a lascannon, and this Heavy Bolter over there is a Grav Cannon. And this power sword over there..."

 

You can't tell me there is no difference. :)

[The Unseen]

It was a statement on "my ultramarines are dark angels". They're different factions, just like orks are.

 

What's the point of writing rules that say "use their first founding's trait" if they really intended for everyone to go "nah, they're actually that first founding chapter, now gimme guilliman and calgar because I deserve it"

Umm, well, maybe they shouldn't write rules for making a successor chapter that essentially boils down to

"They're exactly the same as Ultras, but worse and with fewer options"

 

And also, up until literally this codex, paint scheme didn't matter except were running multiple differnt chapter detatchments and things need to be told apart on the table.

That's it.

 

So my 2 cents is that your dudes use whatever rules you want, as long as I know what they are.

Your Gman and veteran ultras are painted bright neon pink and yellow?

Alrighty then.

I mean, I'm going to good naturedly call them all chaos tainted mutants who need to be put down in the name of the Emperor, but as a joke.

And then play the game.

 

Your guys painted down to the finest detail as 2nd company ultras but you say theyre on a stealth mission and they're using Raven Guard rules for this game?

Sure thing.

 

I remember in 5th when chaos space marines were terribad, that a lot of local players were using Space Wolf rules, just so games were fun again. And guess what, the skies didn't rain blood for their temerity.

 

This is a game of plastic army men for grown-ups.

Start acting like it.

As long as you can tell which models, if any, have different rules then the rest, and WYSIWYG is roughly adhered too, do what you want.

They're YOUR models.

And anyone who tells you otherwise isn't worth the time of day.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So because there are better rules for different factions, the "grown up" solution is to feel entitled to them.

 

Orks=ultramarines and all that

[Bryan Blaire]

So because there are better rules for different factions, the "grown up" solution is to feel entitled to them.

Orks=ultramarines and all that

When you have an actual point to make, please do. The rules don't agree with your point of view - be an adult and suck it up.

 

No one is policing your games, if you want to use paint scheme rules, go for it. While you are at it, write to GW asking for a FAQ about "paint schemes = rules." Don't whine line a child and make ridiculous statements because GW didn't write what you want - they didn't write a punishment rule for "lesser Chapters." Get over it.

 

At tournaments, most (every?) player expects WYSIWYG to be enforced.

 

How is requesting you follow paint schemes that represents your chapter any different from requesting you use the adequate bits to represent the weapons your models use?

Well - one - there are thousands of Forge Worlds in the game galaxy, there have to be to support the level of war footing the Imperium is on and the number of planets that need stuff. Since we know that there are multiple designs of the same thing that look slightly different, so it actually makes more sense that not all plasma or melts guns, bolsters, etc, all look the same. So people are free to convert that stuff and still play the game and be within the fluff, now the rules, that's where it might get a bit sticky, depending on just how anal one needs to be and how few games and hobby friends they want to have.

 

Two - there are no rules on paint schemes in the game, just like there are no WYSIWYG rules. So if a tournament is going to enforce either, it is free to as house rules for that tournament. That tournament's rules have zero bearing on the official game rules.

 

So feel free to request at a tournament that enforces paint scheme rules that the schemes match the rules used. Hopefully the tournament has written some decent rules out so that people can read them and understand what the tournament requires as appropriate schemes, otherwise you can rules lawyer the :cuss out of them to damage other people's armies.

 

So, how on this crazy environment are we supposed to know how to do things?

 

Luckily in the core rules, there's this little tid-bit:

MODELS &DATASHEETS

The rules and characteristics for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets, which you will need in order to use the models in battle.

So as we can see, GW has already provided us with what we need to be able to define how we know what rules to use for models - they are given by the datasheets. So legitimately according to the Core Rules for 40K, currently you use the datasheets for the models you have.

 

Yes, this is a bit of a creative blow, Calgar will always look like Calgar, not like a scratch-built model you want, etc. Yes, it's a blow to "Counts As" and Proxies as well. But them's the rules. That one I'll personally let folks get away with, because GW doesn't produce the variety of models that their own fluff would call for. This rule would potentially also kill conversions, which we know that GW supports through White Dwarf, so they themselves seem a little iffy on it, but if someone wants to rule that your super-detailed custom Calgar can't be played because it isn't the model matching the datasheet, technically according to the rules they can.

 

And that's why Orks aren't Marines of any color.

[SkimaskMohawk]

My point was that there should be restrictions for scheme, as the inheritors rule is well, completely useless without any. I never claimed that the rules actually support that, but at the same time there's some major entitlement currently for cross marine faction counts as.

But you would know that if you bothered to read the last page

Edited August 24, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Bryan Blaire]

My point was that there should be restrictions for scheme, as the inheritors rule is well, completely useless without any. I never claimed that the rules actually support that, but at the same time there's some major entitlement currently for cross marine faction counts as.

QQ, "...but it should be the way I think!"

 

The rule works just fine - it's there for those that want to choose a different Keyword/play closer to the lore. It seems more like some people were hoping to see punishment for those that don't strictly adhere to the publication depictions.

 

Write GW - if they agree that was the intent of the rules, they may change it. Or play with house rules.

 

It's pretty major entitlement to think that because you want the rules a certain way, other people can't play they way they want to - no one else's games affect yours, add some more house rules . That's elitist gatekeeper level entitlement right there.

 

Luckily for the gaming masses, GW didn't bother to go that route, and left their own need for "how to play the game in my house"/"get our photos on" to the locales in their house.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the thread is about inheritors vs counts as. That's the entire topic that's meant to be discussed. Kind of the point of a forum and discussion topics.

 

And they completely went that route for their own tournament packet, so I guess their elitist gatekeeping entitlement is in full swing too.

Edited August 24, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Bryan Blaire]

Well the thread is about inheritors vs counts as. That's the entire topic that's meant to be discussed. Kind of the point of a forum and discussion topics.

And they completely went that route for their own tournament packet, so I guess their elitist gatekeeping entitlement is in full swing too.

Luckily for the gaming masses, GW didn't bother to go that route, and left their own need for "how to play the game in my house"/"get our photos on" to the locales in their house.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Reading is fun-duh-mental, kids...

 

--------------------

 

As far as the Inheritors of the Primarch, yes, it could have used a bit more substance to it, but it still serves a defined purpose for those that want to cleave more to the lore - Sons of Orar may be Inheritors, but Spears of the Emperor most definitely are not, etc.

 

But why would anyone do that!?

 

Because of the lore!

 

But what game benefit does that have!?

 

Wait - are we discussing that following the lore should have in-game benefits now? That seems like an awfully game-based need for a lore-nut. Sometimes loyalty is it's own reward.

 

If someone needs something to make them feel better/more superior to those that seek diverge in their own way, then perhaps that person's enjoyment doesn't actually derive from the lore and they themselves following it closely, but strays more to a control need over others.

[Marshal van Trapp]

I fully believe that inheritors is specifically for chapters that have special characters (like Raptors and Blood Ravens) but dont have their own chapter tactic, so you can still use their special characters but their parent chapter's traits

 

Because otherwise you cant bring issodon in an army using the RG tactic (like in C:SM 1.0)

Edited August 24, 2019 by Marshal van Trapp

[Spinsanity]

It seems more like some people were hoping to see punishment for those that don't strictly adhere to the publication depictions.

Punishment for those that don’t strictly adhere to the publication depiction? Seriously, that’s the exact opposite of what I’ve been saying, I guess you didn’t bother reading my posts before replying?

 

Unless everyone so far who quoted the new ‘dex has been misquoting it (I don’t have it yet, busy schedule and all), the rules apparently speciffically say that if your models are painted as Ultramarines, you have to play them as such; if they’re painted as one of a selected list of successors, they have to be played as such. Otherwise, you’re free to play them as successors of whichever Legion you want.

 

How is this fair? Why should a player be penalized because they chose to paint their models as Silver Skulls and thus be forced to play them as UM successors whereas someone else who painted his as Doom Legion marines could play them as whatever he or she wanted?

[Lemondish]

 

How is this fair? Why should a player be penalized because they chose to paint their models as Silver Skulls and thus be forced to play them as UM successors whereas someone else who painted his as Doom Legion marines could play them as whatever he or she wanted?

 

 

I think presenting it as a penalty is a bit of a stretch...

[Marshal van Trapp]

 

 

 

How is this fair? Why should a player be penalized because they chose to paint their models as Silver Skulls and thus be forced to play them as UM successors whereas someone else who painted his as Doom Legion marines could play them as whatever he or she wanted?

 

I think presenting it as a penalty is a bit of a stretch...

Isnt it though? If I came up with my own chapter in the 1.0 codex I could play them as whatever I want to, but now as 2.0 has apparently decided (or more specifically the Community has decided based on what they perceive as RAW) I HAVE to play them as a successor and I thus dont get any special characters/units or relics without spending extra CP, sounds like a hobby penalty/tax to me

[Bryan Blaire]

Punishment for those that don’t strictly adhere to the publication depiction? Seriously, that’s the exact opposite of what I’ve been saying, I guess you didn’t bother reading my posts before replying?

Are you the entirety of "some people"? If not, then the offense you are taking is of your own making - I certainly didn't call you out. Or is this a case if you feeling that the shoe does fit...

 

Unless everyone so far who quoted the new ‘dex has been misquoting it (I don’t have it yet, busy schedule and all), the rules apparently speciffically say that if your models are painted as Ultramarines, you have to play them as such; if they’re painted as one of a selected list of successors, they have to be played as such. Otherwise, you’re free to play them as successors of whichever Legion you want.

Okay, first, I quoted the relevant text from the Codexes earlier, and not once is the paint scheme indicated in any of the rule text. So now I will ask you "Did you bother to read my posts before you responded?

 

The answer to it all is in the rules - it says "you choose" or "you have chosen." It doesn't say anywhere "you painted" or any other indication of what something is painted as.

 

How is this fair? Why should a player be penalized because they chose to paint their models as Silver Skulls and thus be forced to play them as UM successors whereas someone else who painted his as Doom Legion marines could play them as whatever he or she wanted?

No one IS penalized under the current rules. If you have your Marines painted as Silver Skulls, but you choose the Ultramarines Keyword for them, then as long as you stay within the rules for the Ultramarines Keyword, your Marines are Ultramarines.

 

Now, if the rules specified that how you paint them makes a difference (which no one has yet provided a quote out of any of the game rule text saying), then there might be some "locking in" of rules that could be unfair.

 

I already answered your original question you posed - Why would anyone, for example, play an Ultramarines successor chapter using the Inheritors of the Promarch Chapter Tactic, instead of simply playing his chapter as an Ultramarines Counts-as?

Because they want to play by the lore.

 

If I came up with my own chapter in the 1.0 codex I could play them as whatever I want to, but now as 2.0 has apparently decided (or more specifically the Community has decided based on what they perceive as RAW) I HAVE to play them as a successor and I thus dont get any special characters/units or relics without spending extra CP, sounds like a hobby penalty/tax to me

Again, there's no paint scheme rule for anyone to decide about. The rules don't indicate that schemes matter. Ask the people who want to make you do something you didn't choose per the rules to quote you the rule that says you have to do differently.

[Lemondish]

Inheritors of the Primarch is also key to playing a successor exactly as its parent while still using the special characters they might like from forge world.

[Trevak Dal]

 

Personally it shouldn't matter. I paint my marines as ultras, if I want to use one half as ultras and another as dark angels then that should be ok as long as you can tell which unit belongs to which chapter. It does irritate me that GW do not allow this in their tournaments. Why paint an army in an official colour scheme as it just restricts you.

This is a perfect example of why color scheme should matter. If we're in a game and your entire army is painted as Ultramarines and most of them are using Ultramarine rules except *those squads* are a actually Dark Angel's, that is a problem. You might be able to keep what is what straight in your head, but I may not be able. It's the same problem with proxies and WYSIWYG; if that melta is actually plasma but *that* melta over there is actually a lascannon, things are going to get confusing quickly and that's not fair to your opponent.

Yeah there are a butt ton of Ultramarine successor chapters a body could use to run as "something not Ultramarines" if you had multiple detachments and didn't want to paint them up as dark Angels.

 

Part of me really, really wants to go heavily into capes and hoods (not robes...) Like hunters from the Destiny series. Again...not so much camouflage, but like Hunter cloaks in Destiny being personal to the wearer, when a brother-sargent falls, one of his men takes it up to see him avenged, before retiring it to their Hall of fallen.