On Primaris and the future of 40k

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think we're likely to see many (if any) new "firstborn" Marine models but really, do we NEED any new ones? AFAIK every Oldmarine unit in the codex has a decent modern kit available, aside from some characters who will likely be Rubicon'd- the Tactical Marine kit is still quite new and IIRC scales nicely with modern stuff. And I don't think Oldmarines need any new units, as they already have an entire codex's worth, and if balance is an issue it'd be better for them to rebalance what already exists than plug holes with yet more new kits.

 

I'd much rather we got new plastic Noise Marines and Berzerkers for example as the Berzerker kit is ancient and Noise Marines currently consist of an upgrade kit which may or may not be compatible with the new CSM plastics.

 

Yes, we currently need plastic breachers, plastic destroyers, plastic assault squads in old marks or an assault squad upgrade sprue,  plastic mark 2, plastic scimitars, sicarans, deimos predators, a reworked contemptor, and maybe a leviathan if GW wants to make money hand over fist. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Robbienw]

I don't think we're likely to see many (if any) new "firstborn" Marine models but really, do we NEED any new ones? 

 

Yes 

 

One of the things that annoyed me about the primaris release was it stopped the redo of the classic marine line just before it was finished. 

 

There are a few key kits that needed to be redone to the modern standard, specifically the 2 codex terminator kits and bikes.  I was looking forward to a redo of both, codex terminators to the standard of stuff like the Deathwing and BA terminators, and standard bikes as good as the RW Black Knight bikes.  Also needed and expected were a new command squad, plastic techmarine, servitors and thunderfire cannon.

 

Scouts aren't too bad IMO, but some people wanted new versions of them as well.

 

We have kind got new Terminators in a way via Space Marine Heroes series 2, but i'd still like a full multi-part kit than can make fully equipped squads.

 

And of course more plastic HH stuff as Marshall Rohr mentions.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Robbienw

[Bryan Blaire]

I’d much rather GW do plastic Outrider bikes than see any more of the current standard Astartes bikes - as well as a revamp of the basic Terminator kits (probably wouldn’t even take much, they already have the basic stuff done for the new Blood Angels and Dark Angels boxes).

 

The CAD process means they likely already have a ton of files left to go - the hold up will be getting the printing done and that cleaned up and painted so they can do box art, as well as simply getting enough stock manufactured. There’s probably two years or more worth of designs already done at GW, they are just going through all the needed motions to get it produced. We’ve already seen some new design stuff for the Irons Hands sprue, and I’m guessing there’s already a lot more done - production is the choke point right now, the model designers are probably running 10,000 GW standard distance units per hour.

 

I don’t know that we are going to see a return to traditional multi-part & pose kits though - that likely is a legacy of litigiousness and IP defense, and it sounded like they have software that is tunning to optimize sprue configuration - that along with the “want” for more dynamic poses (and I agree we haven’t seen a huge range of that yet, but it’s the claim) is also likely as much to blame as litigation. I will say that the optimization does seem to be working, there have been a lot of stuff squeezed into sprues lately, much more than you found 20 years ago.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I don't think we're likely to see many (if any) new "firstborn" Marine models but really, do we NEED any new ones? AFAIK every Oldmarine unit in the codex has a decent modern kit available, aside from some characters who will likely be Rubicon'd- the Tactical Marine kit is still quite new and IIRC scales nicely with modern stuff. And I don't think Oldmarines need any new units, as they already have an entire codex's worth, and if balance is an issue it'd be better for them to rebalance what already exists than plug holes with yet more new kits.

 

I'd much rather we got new plastic Noise Marines and Berzerkers for example as the Berzerker kit is ancient and Noise Marines currently consist of an upgrade kit which may or may not be compatible with the new CSM plastics.

Yes, we currently need plastic breachers, plastic destroyers, plastic assault squads in old marks or an assault squad upgrade sprue, plastic mark 2, plastic scimitars, sicarans, deimos predators, a reworked contemptor, and maybe a leviathan if GW wants to make money hand over fist.

Those aren't 40k units, but perhaps FW might create plastic variants of the kits.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I don't think we're likely to see many (if any) new "firstborn" Marine models but really, do we NEED any new ones? AFAIK every Oldmarine unit in the codex has a decent modern kit available, aside from some characters who will likely be Rubicon'd- the Tactical Marine kit is still quite new and IIRC scales nicely with modern stuff. And I don't think Oldmarines need any new units, as they already have an entire codex's worth, and if balance is an issue it'd be better for them to rebalance what already exists than plug holes with yet more new kits.

 

I'd much rather we got new plastic Noise Marines and Berzerkers for example as the Berzerker kit is ancient and Noise Marines currently consist of an upgrade kit which may or may not be compatible with the new CSM plastics.

Yes, we currently need plastic breachers, plastic destroyers, plastic assault squads in old marks or an assault squad upgrade sprue, plastic mark 2, plastic scimitars, sicarans, deimos predators, a reworked contemptor, and maybe a leviathan if GW wants to make money hand over fist.

Those aren't 40k units, but perhaps FW might create plastic variants of the kits.

 

 

Reading is key. 

[Ishagu]

What have I missed exactly? That you're talking about Heresy units in a topic about the future of 40k?

[Marshal Rohr]

The future of 40k has no impact on kits released for Heresy. The future of 40k is Primaris, but the future for oldmarine releases is the Heresy. So when someone says 'what oldmarines kits could they add' the objectively right answer is 'a bunch' because oldmarines span multiple systems. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Evil Eye]

FWIW I was talking strictly about 40K, as HH is a completely different beast with cross-compatibility as a bonus.

[Marshal Rohr]

FWIW I was talking strictly about 40K, as HH is a completely different beast with cross-compatibility as a bonus.

 

Right, but every release for the Heresy is a release for 40k. Every release for Necromunda is a release for 40k. Every release for Shadespire is a release for Age of Sigmar. So when we are talking about the 'future' of 40k, theres plenty on the horizon regardless of what the logo on the top of the box is. 40k is also not a completely different beast. The rules are different, the models are the same. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Ishagu]

Breachers, Destroyers and old pattern Astartes jet bikes will not be coming to 40k.

 

Plastic FW vehicles would be great for everyone. I doubt they'll do a plastic Astraeus but it would be amazing.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Ishagu

[Marshal Rohr]

Breachers and Destroyers can be used to make Tactical, Assault, Devastators, Deathwatch Veterans, Company Veterans with Storm Shields, so yes, they will be coming to 40k. Orruk Ironjaws arent a unit in the ork codex and arent even from the same game, but they came to 40k. Blood Bowl Reiklanders? Awesome arbites and guard conversion abound. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[BitsHammer]

Breachers and Destroyers can be used to make Tactical, Assault, Devastators, Deathwatch Veterans, Company Veterans with Storm Shields, so yes, they will be coming to 40k. Orruk Ironjaws arent a unit in the ork codex and arent even from the same game, but they came to 40k.

Not if they kill those units in 40k first...

 

Unless you want to use them as count-as Primaris units....

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Breachers and Destroyers can be used to make Tactical, Assault, Devastators, Deathwatch Veterans, Company Veterans with Storm Shields, so yes, they will be coming to 40k. Orruk Ironjaws arent a unit in the ork codex and arent even from the same game, but they came to 40k.

Not if they kill those units in 40k first...

 

Unless you want to use them as count-as Primaris units....

 

 

Luckily the just updated all of those units with more competitive rules than ever before so I think we are safe For two years at least. Also, I'd love Primaris Veterans with weapons options and shields. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Rik Lightstar]

Breachers, Destroyers and old pattern Astartes hey bikes will not be coming yo 40k.

 

Plastic FW vehicles would be great for everyone. I doubt they'll do a plastic Astraeus but it would be amazing.

I disagree, GW (and so by extension FW) have a clearly stated goal of ditching ALL metal and resin production wherever possible.

 

Their costs for producing a tool (and the number of required recuts which was a SUBSTANTIAL factor) have dropped massively, their customer base has also grown and by making any "Heresy Release" a defacto 40k release too they improve their returns on that kit in a big way.

 

The new facility they're opening is going to more than double their plastic production capacity, and they're currently not far off meeting demand (very few items go out of stock and rarely for more than a week or two), so that capacity has to have a purpose.... I think you'll be surprised by the increase in the quantity and variety of plastic releases in 2020/2021 including replacing a LOT of current resin products.

 

Rik

[Haywire]

Speaking for myself, I'm a player (Well... when I -eventually- get around to building/painting a workable army) that is in it for the narrative. I love stories. I love making characters and involving them in ways that allow me to 'live' the setting. To that end, I have had considerable issues with the entire premise of the Primaris Marines and, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the later parts of the Firstborn.

 

I started collecting back in 3rd Edition when Space Marines came in three varieties. Scout, Power Armour, and Terminator. This basic trinity has, to my mind, fully embodied what Marines are and provides a clear progression from fresh-faced new-marine to hardened veteran with revered ancient and ornate weapons of the Chapter. Each one was a hero in their own right, like the heroes of antiquity. Ultimately, while they were often decked out and blinged up, they still had that 'grounded' feel to them. You could believe that everything you see works as it does and has a very clearly function in battle.

 

Towards the end of the Firstborn range, we got Centurions. I'll admit, I hated them right off the bat. They stood out to me like a sore thumb, as something that was 'always there', but completely flies in the face of the prior image. There was very little to the Centurion warsuits that made me feel like they were designed with a particular 'function' in mind. They felt more to me like an excuse to just simply cram as many guns into as small a space as possible. Sure, you could argue that overwhelming firepower is a staple of the Imperium, but they just felt... out of place. They felt too over the top and clearly fueled simply by 'awesome' instead of something that I could conceive as being a part of the Astartes armoury.

 

Then, later, we get Primaris. This is where things really downhill for me. With the Centurion warsuits, at least, I could just exclude them from my army and simply say that my Chapter didn't like using them. I could do that, and not feel penalised for doing so. So. Primaris. As I said earlier, I liked the idea of Space Marines as heroes of antiquity, and the clear line you could see as a Space Marine hero started out as a scout and through hard work, grit, and a LOT of bloodshed, they could grow until they're decked out in Terminator armour with badass personal weapons and wargear. With the Primaris, I just simply don't get that same feel. You don't get a simple progression for Primaris Marines, and their equipment doesn't feel like hallowed relics or items of personal significance. There is also the fact that, as so many people have noted, it's extremely likely that we'll see the Firstborn relegated to the background, if not written out completely to make room for the new boys that feel to me, and with my love of narrative, as walking Deus Ex Machinas.

 

So, yes, we come to the Primaris Narrative and what that means for me and my Firstborn. As anyone who knows me would tell you, I overthink things a lot, and I do have an unfortunate habit of getting too attached to my creations. With this in mind, I grew extremely frustrated with how little narrative sense the Primaris Marines made. They felt cheap. They felt unearned. They feel, to me, like they don't actually fit within the setting. They're better than Space Marines in every way, and don't get the drawbacks one expects them to have, namely with the age-old issue of quality vs quantity, and how it's ridiculously cheap to have this issue be completely ignored by something perfect. With these much better creations on the field, what hope is there for the Firstborn marines that I grew attached to? They're utterly redundant, and sure there is always the Rubicon, but that in itself feels like a cheap tool, as it's simply a tool to allow them to maintain their stasis quo after upgrading everyone to be Primaris. We're told it's extremely dangerous, yet every Firstborn special character that has gone through it comes out the other side successfully. What's wrong with killing off some of the special characters with the Rubicon and then replacing them with a Primaris alternative if not for simply nostalgia?

 

This then brings me around to my second issue with the Primaris that links with my image of the classical Space Marines and that progression of Scout -> Power Armour -> Terminator. I'll admit to liking the Intercessors and the Hellblasters. Heck, I can even give some props to the Reivers as they all feel like a fresh take that are still loyal to the classical images. If the entire range was based around this, I would have no issue. Instead, we're given a plethora of models that, to me, feel more like the aim of the game was to simply go with 'AWESOME' at the expense of good sense. The models don't feel like they fit in with the Space Marines, instead they feel like something I'd expect to see in a Blizzard game. They're overly clunky, overgunned, and completely out of any 'proportion', for want of a better term. Ultimately, they feel less like Space Marines now and more like generic Sci-Fi super soldiers that are completely devoid of any of the prior soul and spirituality that defined the Firstborn... and they're here to replace that which I had fully grown to love. It has gotten so bad that I've shelved my Marine project indefinitely, and am moving on to different armies instead. I just can't bear to look at my Marines and think about how redundant they are now, and how they're to be replaced by something that is thematically inferior. Instead, I'll be looking to different armies - namely the Knights and, if they get plastic Aspect Warriors, the Eldar.

 

Anyway. Apologies for the overly long rant. I really should do this less, but yes... it is something that bothers me after having spent over half of my life loving the image of the Space-Medieval Marines.

 

P.S. I won't begrudge anyone who ultimately does love the Primaris. I might wish they didn't so Games Workshop might revisit their decisions, but yes. To each their own. If it works for you, you do you, and I hope you get as much joy from them as I got from my Firstborn. It's just ultimately not for me. Not without considerable reworking that might not even ultimately work.

 

Rant off.

[Ishagu]

Primaris have a nice Trinity of armour too, for what it's worth.

 

Phobos - Tacticus - Gravis

[Haywire]

That they do, yes, but they don't feel like prized relics to me. Like the Primaris, they just came out of nowhere. To say nothing of my issues with their aesthetics and how they don't ascribe to that idea of the progression of armour within the trinity showing off the path of the heroic Space Marine from initiate to hardened veteran. It's all down to the spiritual and ritualistic significance of the items in question.

[Red_Shift]

It's interesting to see Jes talk about the efforts to make primaris a clean slate so that hobbyists can add bling and gothic additions if they want. What is odd to me is that the kits that pull that off best (intercessors and hellblasters) seem to regularly be cited as the most popular of the primaris range and yet lots of the other kits have added a lot of tacticool that was not much of the space marine image. Some of the kits (pimp daddy phobos captain being the worst) are slipping back to the worst excesses of the post chapterhouse era.

 

I remember the dread knight 'baby carrier' being slated at the same time as the centurions and its a bit worrying to see the new dreadnought go back to the same concepts. Unprotected pilot with even bare headed option being a bit of a face palm for me.

 

It seems pretty clear that bringing forward new concepts is important for gw to drive sales. For that reason I predict we will see an imperial guard reboot based around the necromundan spiders before long. Eldar will almost certainly go forward with new aspect ideas.

[Robbienw]

Primaris have a nice Trinity of armour too, for what it's worth.

 

Phobos - Tacticus - Gravis

It’s not a trinity, you missed out Omnis.

[BitsHammer]

 

Primaris have a nice Trinity of armour too, for what it's worth.

 

Phobos - Tacticus - Gravis

It’s not a trinity, you missed out Omnis.

There are likely even more varients coming in the future as well.

 

The problems named for Primaris I feel are ones that come with rebooting a model line line they are. There is no fast and easy easy to fix this early or quickly.

[Haywire]

See, I'm fine with a reboot of the model line in principle, I just take issue with the way it was approached and what the Space Marine range is being replaced with.

[Lucerne]

Basically, the Marine range is in desperate need of an Oldmarine overhaul to the tune of 2-4 rereleases: Tactical Squad in new-CSM/deathwatch or better scaling, assault squad with the same, and maybe a devastator. That, and Terminators.

[BitsHammer]

See, I'm fine with a reboot of the model line in principle, I just take issue with the way it was approached and what the Space Marine range is being replaced with.

Given the thirty two years of emotional attachment the fan base has for Marines no reboot was likely to be completley accepted.

 

The way I see it is that if the Horus Heresy can bloom from a throwaway line then this is worth giving a chance and seeing where it goes.

[BitsHammer]

Basically, the Marine range is in desperate need of an Oldmarine overhaul to the tune of 2-4 rereleases: Tactical Squad in new-CSM/deathwatch or better scaling, assault squad with the same, and maybe a devastator. That, and Terminators.

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

 

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

[FlamingDeth]

It's hard to say that categorically, if the remakes were done with old marks of armor at Primaris scaling then they might have sold better. As it is I didn't buy any of them because they may have been crisper in detail but were basically the same thing as the pile of marines I already had, but if they had fixed the scaling at the same time I may have replaced my entire army. Edited August 17, 2019 by FlamingDeth