On Primaris and the future of 40k

[BitsHammer]

It's hard to say that categorically, if the remakes were done with old marks of armor at Primaris scaling then they might have sold better. As it is I didn't buy any of them because they may have been crisper in detail but were basically the same thing as the pile of marines I already had, but if they had fixed the scaling at the same time I may have replaced my entire army.

They -were- taller though. They weren't truescale but they were taller.

 

That said I have seen claim that Jes has said Primaris as a reboot to the line to fix the scaling and get the feel of the lore but the suits turned it into a complete reboot leasing us here.

[Marshal Rohr]

There’s tons of people who would pay hand over fist for truescale old armor marks

[BitsHammer]

There’s tons of people who would pay hand over fist for truescale old armor marks

Perhaps, but maybe the companny isn't as confident in that claim as the community is. Molds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce and a gamble they were likely not willing to take since it doesn't add new rules or wargear to the game.

[Marshal Rohr]

Plastic injection molds the size of space marine sprues cost tens of thousands of dollars to make. It’s been almost twenty years since a machine tooled injection mold was a flat 100k or more. It’s become so inexpensive for companies, GW could actually purchase the tooling machines themselves to make their own molds.

[BitsHammer]

Plastic injection molds the size of space marine sprues cost tens of thousands of dollars to make. It’s been almost twenty years since a machine tooled injection mold was a flat 100k or more. It’s become so inexpensive for companies, GW could actually purchase the tooling machines themselves to make their own molds.

I have heard GW uses laser cut molds, not machine cut ones.

 

And don't forget the cost of a model kit is far more than the mold itself, but all the man hours for the design team as well as the actual persons in charge of making the molds.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Fulkes

[Master Commander Ajax]

 

There’s tons of people who would pay hand over fist for truescale old armor marks

Perhaps, but maybe the companny isn't as confident in that claim as the community is. Molds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce and a gamble they were likely not willing to take since it doesn't add new rules or wargear to the game.

They took a much bigger risk by doing Primaris in the first place though surely? The safer bet would have been to ‘truscale’ original Marines or do a range refresh and carry on ignoring scale creep like Chaos Marines got.

[Master Commander Ajax]

Also...

 

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

As far as I know we don’t have an accurate way of knowing how well kits sell? None of my hobby buddies have bought ANY of the new Primaris kits but I wouldn’t draw any wider conclusion based on that.

 

Conversely I’m convinced that, had we not had that 2015 refresh, then GW would have just rebooted original Marines instead of going down the Primaris route.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

There’s tons of people who would pay hand over fist for truescale old armor marks

Perhaps, but maybe the companny isn't as confident in that claim as the community is. Molds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce and a gamble they were likely not willing to take since it doesn't add new rules or wargear to the game.

They took a much bigger risk by doing Primaris in the first place though surely? The safer bet would have been to ‘truscale’ original Marines or do a range refresh and carry on ignoring scale creep like Chaos Marines got.

New kits have a wider potential customer base than redone old kits.

 

Despite what the older hobbyists +++snip+++ will claim, GW has a better grasp on what they're doing than what we think they do. Considering the number of people who have been making the shift to accepting Primaris, I feel like they took a reasonable risk and it's paying off more than releasing updates on old kits did.

Also...

 

 

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

As far as I know we don’t have an accurate way of knowing how well kits sell? None of my hobby buddies have bought ANY of the new Primaris kits but I wouldn’t draw any wider conclusion based on that.

 

Conversely I’m convinced that, had we not had that 2015 refresh, then GW would have just rebooted original Marines instead of going down the Primaris route.

It's possible. Rumor has it that Jes started the project with that in mind but was redirected by the execs, likely after the 2015 refresh failed to gain enough traction.

 

And no, we don't have a hard way to get data without GW releasing it, hence why I did say that I am operating on a fair bit of assumption based on what information and rumor coming out of the studio.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly, I think it was not only a model refresh, but also an attempt at a rules refresh for Marines without just jumping all Marines up to Movie-Marines stats (specifically because the Movie-Marines thing is usually used in a negative way) - use the more beneficial stats to hopefully drive more sales, but eventually due to the depiction of the accelerating pace of Marines going through the Rubicon all Marines will simply have the upgrade stats and possibly a more easy to balance rules structure (less equipment optoins within a squad means less variables to deal with for that squad).

[BitsHammer]

Honestly, I think it was not only a model refresh, but also an attempt at a rules refresh for Marines without just jumping all Marines up to Movie-Marines stats (specifically because the Movie-Marines thing is usually used in a negative way) - use the more beneficial stats to hopefully drive more sales, but eventually due to the depiction of the accelerating pace of Marines going through the Rubicon.

This could be a driving force on some of the design choices we've been seeing.

[Marshal Rohr]

They did release more oldmarines. They released:

 

Cataphractii Terminator Armor

Tartaros Terminator Armor

Mark 4 Tactical Squad

Mark 3 Tactical Squad

ETB Contemptor Dreadnaught

 

Five new oldmarine kits all designed and released while the company worked on Primaris. Also you keep saying ‘likely’ and ‘maybe’ and then attaching definitive statement to them like ‘the 2015 refresh didn’t sell’. Provide quotes, sales figures, and statements from the designers to back that up or stop saying it. Like you kept saying molds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, I pointed out they don’t, and now you’re talking about man hours and designer salaries. Primaris didn’t show up because marines were failing. We have no facts about why they showed up and everything we’ve been told is corporatese.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Bryan Blaire]

This could be a driving force on some of the design choices we've been seeing.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Your quote made me realize I didn't actually finish my thought.

 

:facepalm:

[BitsHammer]

They did release more oldmarines. They released:

 

Cataphractii Terminator Armor

Tartaros Terminator Armor

Mark 4 Tactical Squad

Mark 3 Tactical Squad

ETB Contemptor Dreadnaught

 

Five new oldmarine kits all designed and released while the company worked on Primaris. Also you keep saying ‘likely’ and ‘maybe’ and then attaching definitive statement to them like ‘the 2015 refresh didn’t sell’. Provide quotes, sales figures, and statements from the designers to back that up or stop saying it. Like you kept saying molds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, I pointed out they don’t, and now you’re talking about man hours and designer salaries. Primaris didn’t show up because marines were failing. We have no facts about why they showed up and everything we’ve been told is corporatese.

They released plastic kits tied to the Horus Heresy and gave us rules for 40k. Horus Heresy has basically become a specialist game at this point and isn't really being treated as a main line game.

 

And I get it, you don't agree with my conclusions, but the point that they're rebooting the Marine line for some reason. The biggest reason I could see where an issue of bloat and a loss in sales performance on updating old parts of the line and I tried to support that idea with what evidence I could find and extrapolate the rest the best I could.

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s specifically stated in a document released last month to be the third core game. The release of Primaris has no effect on the Heresy or oldmarine models released for the Heresy any more than fyreslayers had an impact on 40k or Pelennor fields had an impact on necromunda. That’s why all the talk of ‘killing oldmarines’ is pointless. They aren’t going to stop making oldmarines as long as the Heresy is their third core game.

[BitsHammer]

It’s specifically stated in a document released last month to be the third core game. The release of Primaris has no effect on the Heresy or oldmarine models released for the Heresy any more than fyreslayers had an impact on 40k or Pelennor fields had an impact on necromunda. That’s why all the talk of ‘killing oldmarines’ is pointless. They aren’t going to stop making oldmarines as long as the Heresy is their third core game.

They can seperate 40k and 30k into seperate lines with little to no future crossover though. My point wasn't that they won't make anymore Oldstartes anymore, but rather that they won't make any more lotalist Oldstartes for 40k.

 

Honestly I feel like you're twisting the entire post regarding the future of 40k I made into something unrelated just to slap a "Well AKTUALLY..." on the discussion.

[Marshal Rohr]

Because AKTUALLY there’s no difference between models released for Heresy and for oldmarines in 40k. The same way there is no difference between Ironjaws or Rattlebone released for Shadespire and Ironjaw/Spoops for AoS.

[BitsHammer]

Because AKTUALLY there’s no difference between models released for Heresy and for oldmarines in 40k. The same way there is no difference between Ironjaws or Rattlebone released for Shadespire and Ironjaw/Spoops for AoS.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here: they can keep making stuff for 30k without keeping it in 40k or even selling it as 40k related kits.

 

If they're treating it as a core game and not just a specialist game tied to another core game there is nothing preventing them from making stuff for that game they don't bring over to 40k.

 

The insistance that a release for one core game means a release for another is like saying an Orc release for LotR means we can use them in 40k.

 

EDIT: one last point before so stop bothering with your nonsense of paying Tzeentch's Advocate: the lore in the current codex makes it pretty clear that the 40k Astartes are making a mass transition to becoming Primaris because the benefits in battle outweigh the downsides. The studio has painted a rsther clear picture of where they want to take the future of loyalists Astartes and no amount of 30k releases is going to upend that.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Fulkes

[Ishagu]

Also...

 

 

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

As far as I know we don’t have an accurate way of knowing how well kits sell? None of my hobby buddies have bought ANY of the new Primaris kits but I wouldn’t draw any wider conclusion based on that.

 

Conversely I’m convinced that, had we not had that 2015 refresh, then GW would have just rebooted original Marines instead of going down the Primaris route.

Yeah it's a funny one. Anecdotally it's hard to tell.

 

Two of my friends who never collected Astartes now have large Primaris armies, one Raven Guard, the other a custom chapter.

 

And I've accumulated a 4k force myself. They seem popular at my local clubs, at the very least I see players running Repulsors and other units.

[Volt]

It's interesting to see Jes talk about the efforts to make primaris a clean slate so that hobbyists can add bling and gothic additions if they want. What is odd to me is that the kits that pull that off best (intercessors and hellblasters) seem to regularly be cited as the most popular of the primaris range and yet lots of the other kits have added a lot of tacticool that was not much of the space marine image. Some of the kits (pimp daddy phobos captain being the worst) are slipping back to the worst excesses of the post chapterhouse era.

 

I remember the dread knight 'baby carrier' being slated at the same time as the centurions and its a bit worrying to see the new dreadnought go back to the same concepts. Unprotected pilot with even bare headed option being a bit of a face palm for me.

 

It seems pretty clear that bringing forward new concepts is important for gw to drive sales. For that reason I predict we will see an imperial guard reboot based around the necromundan spiders before long. Eldar will almost certainly go forward with new aspect ideas.

The one thing that baffles me is... where is all of the gothic baubles? They aren't in the upgrade sprues because they're pathetic and just give you some pauldrons and one or two useful bits and not much of note. What's the point of making them plain and saying "people can decorate them" when you don't actually supply the bits to do so and force people to kitbash, buying whole other units to cannibalize them? If GW is going to make the bother of including chapter sprues.... those sprues should actually contain the pieces to bling a marine out like the old ones did - alternative torsos, baubles mounted on the power pack, incense pots, candles, etc. There would have been a lot less backlash had they properly released some chapter upgrade kits that made your marines look like your chapter. If I want some tabards on Primaris, I need to go third party.

[Marshal Reinhard]

With phobos units being expanded with the latest releases, enough so that they can basically be fielded as a complete army on their own, it does seem more and more clear that a complete reboot was the main objective of Primaris project. A lot of strings pulled towards that end, like the perhaps somewhat controversial lore additions. The return of Gulliman seems almost a given now for what they wanted to do, codex rewritten, new marines with all new gear and innovations made possible in a setting which otherwise disallows such things (though perhaps with hamfisted justifications in the lore, according to most...) Regardless, the board has been wiped clean with what you can add to the marine range, now you can have entire armies of power armored scouts with a multitude of different squad types, and even a scout dreadnought, and I'm sure we can expect something similiar for Gravis or maybe even Omnis armor in the future.

[Robbienw]

 

 

Primaris have a nice Trinity of armour too, for what it's worth.

 

Phobos - Tacticus - Gravis

It’s not a trinity, you missed out Omnis.

There are likely even more varients coming in the future as well.

Hopefully one that looks almost exactly like mk7 armour ;)

[Robbienw]

 

Basically, the Marine range is in desperate need of an Oldmarine overhaul to the tune of 2-4 rereleases: Tactical Squad in new-CSM/deathwatch or better scaling, assault squad with the same, and maybe a devastator. That, and Terminators.

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

 

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

Going to need to see actual sales figures to back up that claim, I would doubt that is the case without serious evidence.

 

Also you have to consider collectors as well who will buy the latest updates of beloved classic units, who are in the hobby exclusively or primarily for the models. I replaced all of my tactical, assault and devastator squads with the new ones in 2013 and 2015 respectively.

[Redcomet]

What I believe is frustrating for many is the new plastic kits (mostly primaris) monopose design were the parts on the sprue are delineated along inconvenient body parts (i.e. instead of the plastic parts be the legs or torso, the new parts are like front half of the torso and the front half of the thigh with the robe attached) as if the model's designer designed the parts so that conversion/alteration options is deliberately impaired.

 

That is what sucks way more than primarisifying the whole space marine range. And that is not only valid for primaris marines, but for all new plastic infantry kits for 40k and AOS, as if GW really want you to not convert or choose a pose.

 

I believe this will put off a lot of hobbyists and push them away from the GW range to other 3rd party suppliers that keep the part delineation along the natural body parts (legs, torso, arms etc) to allow players to put their personal touch on the models in terms of bling, weapons and pose.

Making plastic model kits isn’t easy, so you always have to compromise somehow. And GW chose to prioritize the final look over anything else. Jes states it in one of his Knight videos, on the subject of pose ability, that they want their kits to be on the easier side to build for a beginner, and still get a good result.

[Redcomet]

 

 

Basically, the Marine range is in desperate need of an Oldmarine overhaul to the tune of 2-4 rereleases: Tactical Squad in new-CSM/deathwatch or better scaling, assault squad with the same, and maybe a devastator. That, and Terminators.

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

 

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

Going to need to see actual sales figures to back up that claim, I would doubt that is the case without serious evidence.

 

Also you have to consider collectors as well who will buy the latest updates of beloved classic units, who are in the hobby exclusively or primarily for the models. I replaced all of my tactical, assault and devastator squads with the new ones in 2013 and 2015 respectively.

It should be quite obvious. If the marine sales figures where what GW where happy with, then the Primaris project hadn’t been a thing. They don’t make their decisions in a vacuum or by throwing darts on a board...

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Because AKTUALLY there’s no difference between models released for Heresy and for oldmarines in 40k. The same way there is no difference between Ironjaws or Rattlebone released for Shadespire and Ironjaw/Spoops for AoS.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here: they can keep making stuff for 30k without keeping it in 40k or even selling it as 40k related kits.

 

If they're treating it as a core game and not just a specialist game tied to another core game there is nothing preventing them from making stuff for that game they don't bring over to 40k.

 

The insistance that a release for one core game means a release for another is like saying an Orc release for LotR means we can use them in 40k.

 

EDIT: one last point before so stop bothering with your nonsense of paying Tzeentch's Advocate: the lore in the current codex makes it pretty clear that the 40k Astartes are making a mass transition to becoming Primaris because the benefits in battle outweigh the downsides. The studio has painted a rsther clear picture of where they want to take the future of loyalists Astartes and no amount of 30k releases is going to upend that.

Ah, so what you are saying is how long will GW Support oldmarines with rules for 8th Edition, not so much models. Well a new marine Codex was released Saturday with update oldmarine rules, points drops, and they came out pretty nice if you look at them by themselves. Nothing to worry about for a few years until the next Codex. Edited August 18, 2019 by Marshal Rohr