On Primaris and the future of 40k

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

Basically, the Marine range is in desperate need of an Oldmarine overhaul to the tune of 2-4 rereleases: Tactical Squad in new-CSM/deathwatch or better scaling, assault squad with the same, and maybe a devastator. That, and Terminators.

Tacticals were already given a reboot in 2013 and 2015 using the current tooling.

 

They didn't sell well enough for GW to keep pursuing remaking old kits since existing player don't buy massive number of kits to replace their existing models.

Going to need to see actual sales figures to back up that claim, I would doubt that is the case without serious evidence.

 

Also you have to consider collectors as well who will buy the latest updates of beloved classic units, who are in the hobby exclusively or primarily for the models. I replaced all of my tactical, assault and devastator squads with the new ones in 2013 and 2015 respectively.

It should be quite obvious. If the marine sales figures where what GW where happy with, then the Primaris project hadn’t been a thing. They don’t make their decisions in a vacuum or by throwing darts on a board...

That doesn’t make any sense, and you cannot come to that conclusion without any evidence of sales figures.

 

GW is always making new models, because they need to make new stuff to keep the sales coming, even if what has been released before sells well. Sales of new stuff drops off relatively quickly after the initial release when most people who want them have got them, and slows to a smaller number when it’s only new players and people getting the odd kit here and there to fill gaps.

 

Previous marine releases selling well does not stop GW coming up with the Primaris.

 

They came up with the Primaris because they need to be continually selling new marines, and decided to do them all over again in a slightly different flavour. They need to keep bringing out new kits regardless of how well previous stuff sells.

 

The renewed assault and devastator squads went on sale in mid 2015 anyway, they started working on Primaris marines in 2014 before those went on sale, so they cannot have known the sales figures of those before Primaris got the go ahead.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Robbienw

[b1soul]

Lorewise, I'd like then to keep both original marines and primaris. I think it makes the 40K universe more interesting, adding a layer of cooperation and potential conflict between the generations.

[Vermintide]

I do eventually expect to see Primaris replace old marines. But I don't expect them to go the whole way and drop old marines from the rules until they have some sort of equivalent for every existing unit. I don't mean direct replacements, but for example, we've always had regular Captains and then Terminator cpatains- We have the regular and Gravis captain now. I can forsee them eventually giving Primaris the option of things like jump packs and more wargear variety, so that the new Primaris units will still be able to do the same/similar things you can do with classic Marines now. That way, I think, they are aiming for the Primaris to eventually end up as a soft reboot where you can proxy your old scouts for Reivers and your old Terminators for Aggressors and so on, something like that- After all, there's nothing stopping you using your weird old Rogue Trader models in the current game, is there?

On a fluff note I think that idea of a soft reboot is somewhat supported. People have complained about the way Cawl's apparent mastery of technology clashes with established lore. But I think it's supposed to- What we're seeing represents something more like the early days of the post-Heresy Imperium. Technology was still available, the Imperium was still able to research and innovate to some extent, STCs were used but weren't arcane relics of a time long lost. But gradually, over time, and centuries of grinding, relentless warfare, it will regress. I won't be surprised if there's some drastic change to the lore about the Emperor's REAL death, Cawl's disappearance or fall to Chaos, a fracture with Mars, and the Imperium descending once again into techno-superstition, to put us right back where we were at square one- But with a new Marine model range.

But then again maybe I'm just being wildly optimistic and they really are just turning it into Starcraft with more skulls.

I think maybe we have to consider the audience- Warhammer now is the furthest thing from the deeply British Thatcher era cyberpunk satire that it was in the late 80s and 90s. I think a lot of that has had to be watered down solely for the sake of international appeal.

[b1soul]

You could make a pretty strong argument that it's been StarCraft with more skulls since third or fourth edition

[Vermintide]

Nah, I'd say back then it was the other way around. Starcraft was 40k with less skulls. But we've come full circle in recent years.

 

AoS in particular is very Blizzard, and that's a clear cut case of a creator imitating it's own imitator.

[BitsHammer]

Nah, I'd say back then it was the other way around. Starcraft was 40k with less skulls. But we've come full circle in recent years.

 

AoS in particular is very Blizzard, and that's a clear cut case of a creator imitating it's own imitator.

Times have changed and the generation thatnis coming into this game wide eyed and innocent is different than the generation that came before it. With that it's bound to be some things about the game have to change to keep new blood coming into it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Starcraft and Warcraft existed during the Golden Age and it still drew in people who played those games without giving up the gothic aesthetic

[BitsHammer]

Starcraft and Warcraft existed during the Golden Age and it still drew in people who played those games without giving up the gothic aesthetic

Aye, but do the kids growing up now really play those games?

 

I'm pretty sure they're too busy flossing to construct additional pylons....

 

I know I'm being a little cynical but tastes change and games need to as well in the long run, even if it means leaving us behind.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Fulkes

[Zebulon]

I know I'm being a little cynical but tastes change and games need to as well in the long run, even if it means leaving us behind.

I know I am a bit of a naysayer re: Primaris but I still find myself hoping that this all turns out more like the ending of Jurassic World? Not to spoil but anyone who saw it should get my meaning...

 

The newfangled and ridiculously-named “Indominus Rex” gets taken down by the classic Tyrannosaurus Rex.

[BitsHammer]

 

I know I'm being a little cynical but tastes change and games need to as well in the long run, even if it means leaving us behind.

I know I am a bit of a naysayer re: Primaris but I still find myself hoping that this all turns out more like the ending of Jurassic World? Not to spoil but anyone who saw it should get my meaning...

 

The newfangled and ridiculously-named “Indominus Rex” gets taken down by the classic Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Nah. Not with GW going into a reboot to upscale Marines and give themselves more room for future updates.

[Master Commander Ajax]

 

Nah, I'd say back then it was the other way around. Starcraft was 40k with less skulls. But we've come full circle in recent years.

AoS in particular is very Blizzard, and that's a clear cut case of a creator imitating it's own imitator.

Times have changed and the generation thatnis coming into this game wide eyed and innocent is different than the generation that came before it. With that it's bound to be some things about the game have to change to keep new blood coming into it.

Do you mean that 40k should shift focus away from its darker, more Gothic influences to attract new people into the hobby? If so I’d say I couldn’t disagree more! 40k’s unique appeal has always been its ‘Grimdark’ setting and it’s always attracted plenty of young people. This idea that we have to make things simpler for young people to get their heads around is a stereotype I disagree with.

[ERJAK]

What I believe is frustrating for many is the new plastic kits (mostly primaris) monopose design were the parts on the sprue are delineated along inconvenient body parts (i.e. instead of the plastic parts be the legs or torso, the new parts are like front half of the torso and the front half of the thigh with the robe attached) as if the model's designer designed the parts so that conversion/alteration options is deliberately impaired.

 

That is what sucks way more than primarisifying the whole space marine range. And that is not only valid for primaris marines, but for all new plastic infantry kits for 40k and AOS, as if GW really want you to not convert or choose a pose.

 

I believe this will put off a lot of hobbyists and push them away from the GW range to other 3rd party suppliers that keep the part delineation along the natural body parts (legs, torso, arms etc) to allow players to put their personal touch on the models in terms of bling, weapons and pose.

I think you're overestimating both the difficulty of doing that to even GW monopose plastics and how much people care to do such things.

 

Price will push people away long befoee posability.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

Nah, I'd say back then it was the other way around. Starcraft was 40k with less skulls. But we've come full circle in recent years.

AoS in particular is very Blizzard, and that's a clear cut case of a creator imitating it's own imitator.

Times have changed and the generation thatnis coming into this game wide eyed and innocent is different than the generation that came before it. With that it's bound to be some things about the game have to change to keep new blood coming into it.

Do you mean that 40k should shift focus away from its darker, more Gothic influences to attract new people into the hobby? If so I’d say I couldn’t disagree more! 40k’s unique appeal has always been its ‘Grimdark’ setting and it’s always attracted plenty of young people. This idea that we have to make things simpler for young people to get their heads around is a stereotype I disagree with.

I mean more what is "grimdark" means something different to different generations to some extent and what draws people in changes.

 

Scrape off the gilding of the new 40k we've been seeing and in a lot of ways it's even darker than before, it's just hidden under a layer of slightly changed aesthetics.

 

We also have to remember the original direction of 40k wasn't made to keep it as a sustainable brand or product. It was a bunch of guys in their flat mashing stuff together.

 

That sort of approach has fallen away but the brand never really adjusted to be sustainable indefinitely. These changes allow the company to rotate stuff into and out of the game and keep it alive potentially indefinitely. It's healthier for the game than the path it was on before.

[ERJAK]

I do eventually expect to see Primaris replace old marines. But I don't expect them to go the whole way and drop old marines from the rules until they have some sort of equivalent for every existing unit. I don't mean direct replacements, but for example, we've always had regular Captains and then Terminator cpatains- We have the regular and Gravis captain now. I can forsee them eventually giving Primaris the option of things like jump packs and more wargear variety, so that the new Primaris units will still be able to do the same/similar things you can do with classic Marines now. That way, I think, they are aiming for the Primaris to eventually end up as a soft reboot where you can proxy your old scouts for Reivers and your old Terminators for Aggressors and so on, something like that- After all, there's nothing stopping you using your weird old Rogue Trader models in the current game, is there?

 

On a fluff note I think that idea of a soft reboot is somewhat supported. People have complained about the way Cawl's apparent mastery of technology clashes with established lore. But I think it's supposed to- What we're seeing represents something more like the early days of the post-Heresy Imperium. Technology was still available, the Imperium was still able to research and innovate to some extent, STCs were used but weren't arcane relics of a time long lost. But gradually, over time, and centuries of grinding, relentless warfare, it will regress. I won't be surprised if there's some drastic change to the lore about the Emperor's REAL death, Cawl's disappearance or fall to Chaos, a fracture with Mars, and the Imperium descending once again into techno-superstition, to put us right back where we were at square one- But with a new Marine model range.

 

But then again maybe I'm just being wildly optimistic and they really are just turning it into Starcraft with more skulls.

 

I think maybe we have to consider the audience- Warhammer now is the furthest thing from the deeply British Thatcher era cyberpunk satire that it was in the late 80s and 90s. I think a lot of that has had to be watered down solely for the sake of international appeal.

So that whole second paragraph sounds tragically dull. Back to basic, 'everything is sad forever, look at all the creative ways we made people sad, that's what good storytelling is right?...right?' Nature of 40k.

 

40k lore is fascinating as a historical setting to look back on. If every battle was couched as something that happened millenia ago being recounted by the tyranid hivemind or w/e the tragedy of it would be very compelling. It also makes the fact that nothing any character that wasn't explicitly out to destroy the imperium/eldar did mattered or would ever matter, easier to deal with. Oh, did Pedro Kantor save 15 systems by defeating an entire hive fleet with nothing but his bolter and a steely glare? No one cares because the galaxy is going to end in fire and screams anyway.

 

Trying to actually live in that world on the tabletop is actually horrendous though. I know the scale of the conflict, I know just how F-ed the Tau, Eldar, Imperium, anyone else who might be considered the 'good guys' are. So any attempt at making a campaign or mission that isn't essentially a reenactment is pointless. Who cares if the Raven Fists liberate Floopdy-doo 9 when we all know that the universe is going to end in horror and nightmares soon and that any attempts to stop it is pointless? Every campaign could be 'rocks fall, everyone dies' and it wouldn't change a goddam thing.

 

There has to be at least some hope, no matter how much of a longshot it is, that things might eventually get better for things that happen to have meaning.

[Medjugorje]

do you really think the gothic Age for 40k is over? I hope not.

 

I hope that the newer range will be very different - especially because the lore have more Primaris that never used to be indomitus crusaders.

[Medjugorje]

Nah, I'd say back then it was the other way around. Starcraft was 40k with less skulls. But we've come full circle in recent years.

 

AoS in particular is very Blizzard, and that's a clear cut case of a creator imitating it's own imitator.

 

what is very disappointing - the dark medival Setting was better

[mughi3]

I have been playing 40k going on 2 decades now, so I see shiny new models as nothing new. GW does that every so often usually accompanied by new better rules (while degrading rules for models they already sold lots of) to boost sales with new editions/updates. the problem they have run into is the one the OP mentioned. for those of us who have been playing for so long we don't need any new models to play a game in the newest edition. because something already in our collections will do.

 

 

My problem isn't the rules or the models, I'm with arch warhammer on this one, it's the lore. IF they had said the emperor himself went to cawl, handed over his genetic research on astartes development, like he did with corax, and said finish my work as I am to busy with my shiny new chair. I would have been understanding....however what they did put in the lore was a primarch going to cawl and saying "hey this is what my dad managed to pull off after centuries of work, start from scratch and remake it and do a better job than the emperor."

 

The chapterhouse issue is I think a monster OF GWs own making. they have always been known for their heavy handed defense of IP in the past even when it was attacking their own fan base. I see it akin to the napster debacle where record labels initially failed to embrace and monetize the new technology like the way it is done today. They made rules for models that never existed, they closed down their bits service, they rewrote rules to sell specific models, they hiked prices (going publicly traded in the end was probably a bad call from a game development perspective-remember the old montra "were a model company not a game company, we just have some rules for a game attached to our models") coupled with rules that actually invalidated some armies (forcing people to buy new models to rework the armies they had to stay current).

 

 

In the end I think good has come out of the changes for GW from a game support/development perspective.

Edited August 21, 2019 by mughi3

[Ishagu]

Do people really feel that new and shiny Marines mean that the setting is no longer grimdark?

 

Has the Imperium suddenly become a democratic utopia? Has humanity found ways of bypassing the warp for FTL travel?

Are Marines no longer made from children who have been robbed of their lives and freedom?

I think the setting is largely the same - a bit more depressing and desperate due to the great rift.

[Marshal Reinhard]

If anyone is actually suggesting the gothic theme is going/has gone away in full for real, then I suggest that person is actually being purposefully disingenious or needs a serious reality check.

 

I don't even really feel the claim needs a real rebuttal at this point. And marine armor aside (which we can compare if you really want to... I can quote myself for the nth time regarding it, but its getting silly so I'd rather not), have you had a look at the Imperium aesthetic at all? How has it been impacted? Not at all? That's very true. Look at Mechanicum units, look at the upcoming sisters. I'd say those are way more gothic than space marines or guard have ever been. In fact 'gothic' looking marines have only ever been really highly decorated veterans. The baselines troop weren't ever blinged out unless you chose to bling them out yourself. The vehicles typically never had any decorations, unless you opted in to add some.

 

Now lets drop that stupid notion unless someone has a valid argument towards it? ("B-but! Primaris doesn't have super decorated overly blinged veteran units yet!") Yeah so?

[Zebulon]

Nah. Not with GW going into a reboot to upscale Marines and give themselves more room for future updates.

No, I realise it’s unlikely, but it’s just how I feel.

 

The last wave of oldmarines (or whatever) still felt pleasingly similar to my oldest minis (from the 1990s)

 

The new ones look wrong, are the wrong scale, and equally bad, they were introduced in a manner that showed minimal thought and storytelling, and just screamed “the CEO needs a new Ferrari” - it’s pathetic, and treats the fan base as mugs.

 

Sorry, ranting on a message board makes Zebulon feel marginally less angry about it all :ph34r:

[Closet Skeleton]

My problem isn't the rules or the models, I'm with arch warhammer on this one, it's the lore. IF they had said the emperor himself went to cawl, handed over his genetic research on astartes development, like he did with corax, and said finish my work as I am to busy with my shiny new chair. I would have been understanding....however what they did put in the lore was a primarch going to cawl and saying "hey this is what my dad managed to pull off after centuries of work, start from scratch and remake it and do a better job than the emperor."

 

 

Which is BS, the Emperor being an all powerful genius is supposed to be part of the Imperium's dysfunctional belief system not an article of faith among the playerbase.

 

Being angry at Cawl 'improving on the Emperor' is like being angry at hearing someone claim Tiger Woods is better at golf than the Dictator of North Korea.

 

 

If anyone is actually suggesting the gothic theme is going/has gone away in full for real, then I suggest that person is actually being purposefully disingenious or needs a serious reality check.

 

I don't even really feel the claim needs a real rebuttal at this point. And marine armor aside (which we can compare if you really want to... I can quote myself for the nth time regarding it, but its getting silly so I'd rather not), have you had a look at the Imperium aesthetic at all? How has it been impacted? Not at all?

 

Marines have always stood out as the least Grimdark part of the Imperium range (outside of putting Cadians and Black Templars next to each other). Focusing on marine releases was always going to distort your perception of the setting even without a Primaris revamp.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I know I am a bit of a naysayer re: Primaris but I still find myself hoping that this all turns out more like the ending of Jurassic World? Not to spoil but anyone who saw it should get my meaning...

 

The newfangled and ridiculously-named “Indominus Rex” gets taken down by the classic Tyrannosaurus Rex.

 

 

But, that's not how the film ends.

 

The T Rex doesn't beat the Indominus Rex, even with Raptor help. The Indominus is only killed when the Mosasaurus jumps out of the water and pulls her into its tank

 

Which I guess in 40k analogy would be old Marines and Guardsmen/SOBs ganging up on the Primaris, failing to kill them, then getting killjacked by Deus ex Custodes?

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Marines have always stood out as the least Grimdark part of the Imperium range (outside of putting Cadians and Black Templars next to each other). Focusing on marine releases was always going to distort your perception of the setting even without a Primaris revamp.

 

 

True to a degree. Also, let there be no mistake, I am fully in the camp that *wants* more gothic or perhaps 'barroque' options to bling out my marines, even though I've actually appreciated how clean the base primaris kits are. I still want chains, tabards, parchemnts, candles, braziers, engraved skulls etc and I'm dying to make some highly blinged out, gothic and barroque veteran units to go with my rather plain base troops, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking that the overal aesthetic has been uprooted and scrapped because these doesn't exist for Primaris yet.

 

Just get on with it, GW 

[mughi3]

Which is BS, the Emperor being an all powerful genius is supposed to be part of the Imperium's dysfunctional belief system not an article of faith among the playerbase.

The lore from the horus heresey books says otherwise.... although I did build a small primaris force for 8th but to make it right I used the mantic forge fathers(space dwarves) because if marines are going to be better and stronger then they are obviously going to be squat marines.

[Marshal Rohr]

My problem isn't the rules or the models, I'm with arch warhammer on this one, it's the lore. IF they had said the emperor himself went to cawl, handed over his genetic research on astartes development, like he did with corax, and said finish my work as I am to busy with my shiny new chair. I would have been understanding....however what they did put in the lore was a primarch going to cawl and saying "hey this is what my dad managed to pull off after centuries of work, start from scratch and remake it and do a better job than the emperor.

I said this in another thread but it got deleted. The Space Marines were a Terran project. Cawl is a Martian. Even though the Mechanicum armed and armored the marines, they were detached from their creation and sustainment process beyond holding the geneseed after the Guilliman Reforms of the Codex Astartes. The first time we see the Mechanicum actually engaging in contributing their genetic engineering lore to the development of the space marines were the older stories of the Cursed Founding. Primaris are the first marines that blend the Emperor’s original project with Martian technoarchana in genetic engineering, so if the authors emphasized that - oldmarines were the Terran version, Primaris are a result of the Union of Mars and Terra, you’d have a believable and interesting angle for the Primaris.

 

As for the Gothic aesthetic, when they came out much of the artwork was comic book/cartoony, and felt like an advertisement. After going through the new Codex, I have no issues with the Primaris gothic aesthetic. They’ve returned to producing pieces with the same kind of gravitas as the old art that felt so lived in. If it’s the modes that bother you, just shave off the rails. Seriously. Removing that one little detail immediately makes Intercessors just taller oldmarines in Mark 7. Primaris armor doesn’t have the same technoknight aesthetic as Mark 2/3 and Mark 5 and some variants of Mark 4, sure, but those armies are meant to look older from a time when power armor tech wasn’t as consolidated as it is now.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Marshal Rohr