Stalwart and Lieutenants

[casb1965]

Looking at the new Chapter Tactics and spotted Stalwart

 

unit cannot be wounded by unmodified wound rolls of 1 or 2. Irrespective of the abilities of the attacker.

 

So, question is does this stop Lieutenants from giving you a re-roll of 1's to wound?

 

RAW would say yes but I'm not 100% on that.

[Harrowmaster]

Modifiers are not rerolls. A nat one always fails regardless this just expands it to a nat 2 that also fails. The irrespective of abilities means things like stinger pistols always wounding on a 2.

 

If you roll a 1 it fails always. A lieutenant allows a reroll, if that comes up a 5, it wounds because it is no longer a one. Essentially, like all rerolls the first roll is forgotten about and the 2nd is kept regardless of outcome.

[Slasher956]

As Harrowmaster said... RAW doesnt say yes!... main rule book, pg 178 top of side bar.... updated in the FAQ

 

RAW is, roll

re-rolls

apply modifiers.

check success.

 

 

so using Sister Repentia near a canoness as an example...

roll to hit.

re-roll 1's (canoness ability)

apply -1 to roll (so 4 become 3, and 3 become 2 etc)

check dice result to 3+ hit score.

 

the stalwart ability basically says 

roll to wound

apply any relevant re-rolls

remove all 1 & 2's as failures,  apply any modifiers you have to then remaining dice

check successes as normal.

 

 

EDIT - from the Main Rule Book FAQ

 

 

 

Page 178 – Re-rolls Change this paragraph to read: ‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

Edited August 16, 2019 by Slasher956

[casb1965]

Isn't allowing a reroll an ability?

 

It's listed in his "Abilities" section.

Edited August 21, 2019 by casb1965

[Harrowmaster]

But a one doesn't wound anyway against anything regardless of any abilities. As mentioned rerolls erase the original roll and give a new result.

[casb1965]

But a one doesn't wound anyway against anything regardless of any abilities. As mentioned rerolls erase the original roll and give a new result.

 

It's GWs horrible use of "ability" as an argument. Some weapons "always wound on a 2" as an ability I assume that would mean a fail on 2 and only wounding on 3+. I used that logic to "Abilities" of models thgus ruling out the ability to reroll 1s.

[Harrowmaster]

I highly doubt anyone else is going to read it that way at all. I'm not sure how else to put it, as a one never wounds the reroll doesn't make the "1" wound, it gets rid of it entirely.

[Slasher956]

Hrm.... you know what... I'm beginning to  think that as far as RAW is concerned casb1965 is right...and Stalward DOES prevent re-rolls of a 1 & 2...

 

The rulebook FAQ on page 3 even calls out re-roll abilities as being abilities nad not just special rules....

 

 

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls? A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

RTFT ME!!!!

 

Re-rolls are not modifiers... so re-rolls are allowed, just nothing that can change a 1 or a 2... so thinking about it logically (I know ...I know) the wording of  '1 or 2' is for completion sake / a reminder that 1's fail rather than a new distinction

Edited August 22, 2019 by Slasher956

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I don't think anyone is arguing that a reroll is a modifier.  Rather, the rule says "irrespective of any abilities of the attacker" - so, whether or not its a modifier is a moot point. 

 

Is a reroll an ability?  If its listed in the "abilities" section it probably is.  So, by RAW likely you don't get to reroll - or rather, if your reroll results in you wounding where you wouldn't have before the reroll, you don't wound.

 

Now, I doubt this is what was intended, but... who knows?

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tyriks]

But the reroll wouldn't factor into that. It doesn't say unit abilities are disregarded when wounding this target. It says rolls of 1 or 2 don't wound.

 

If you reroll a 2 and get a 5, your ability is not causing a 1 or a 2 to wound.

[casb1965]

 

As Harrowmaster said... RAW doesnt say yes!... main rule book, pg 178 top of side bar.... updated in the FAQ

 

RAW is, roll

re-rolls

apply modifiers.

check success.

 

 

so using Sister Repentia near a canoness as an example...

roll to hit.

re-roll 1's (canoness ability)

apply -1 to roll (so 4 become 3, and 3 become 2 etc)

check dice result to 3+ hit score.

 

the stalwart ability basically says 

roll to wound

apply any relevant re-rolls

remove all 1 & 2's as failures,  apply any modifiers you have to then remaining dice

check successes as normal.

 

 

EDIT - from the Main Rule Book FAQ

 

 

 

Page 178 – Re-rolls Change this paragraph to read: ‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

 

 

I disagree with your reading of stalwart it reads "An unmodified wound roll of 1 or 2 always fail, irrespective of any abilities the weapon or unit making that attack may have." and the Lieutenants reroll is listed under Abilities. 

 

RAW are:

roll to wound

1s and 2s miss irrespective of any abilities your weapon (wounding on 2's for stinger pistol) or unit has (rerolling of 1s to wound for Lieutenants)

Apply modifiers to remaining wound rolls.

Check for success 

[Cornishman]

So, Stalwart (and transhuman physiology) apply to unmodified rolls. As such I'd say re-rolls (of any kind) are allowed as the result of an unmodified 'roll' is not determined until any re-rolls are taken.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Cornishman

[casb1965]

So you reckon it's

 

Roll to wound

Re-rolls

Apply Stalwart

Modify rolls

 

I can get that, my only question is what "model" or "unit" Abilities are there that happen after reroll?

[Tyriks]

Some weapons always wound on 2+ (i.e. Necron Voidreaper), which would not work with Stalwart. Veterans of the Long War would also be blocked on a roll of 2.

[Cornishman]

Affects and abilities Stalwart would prevent having thier usual affect are anything that gives +1 to wound when you'd normally need a 3+ (e.g. Str 5 vs T4 BA attacks made when they get +1 to wound), or has a special rule allowing it to wound on a 2+ (e.g. Deathwatch's Hellfire SIA).

The strategem Transhuman Physiology is worded practically identically to Stalwart. As such to me the method of resolution will be the same for these two affects (which opens up using more example of affects that would be prevented) .

Edited August 23, 2019 by Cornishman