New Blood Angel Rules

[Karhedron]

Primaris Dark Angels have been confirmed to be on the horizon...perhaps they'll get an update to their codex as well.

Possibly but it may be nothing more than a Primaris "start collecting set" with a DA sprue. Or perhaps I am being too cynical.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

Primaris Dark Angels have been confirmed to be on the horizon...perhaps they'll get an update to their codex as well.

Possibly but it may be nothing more than a Primaris "start collecting set" with a DA sprue. Or perhaps I am being too cynical. :P

Nah, you might be right actually! I think we’ll see the SM supplements released first, my money would be on Iron Hands and perhaps Imperial Fists. After the 6 are out, perhaps it’s time for that update of the non-Codex chapters.

[Indefragable]

I have a feeling BA/DA/SW will get an “equivalent” of Combat Doctrines. Based on the wording of the W-C article:

 

Hidden Content

Combat Doctrines represent the structured way in which adherents of the Codex Astartes overcome any adversary. First of all, they bombard their enemies from afar with heavy weaponry, then they advance on their positions while delivering punishing volleys of bolter fire, before charging in to crush whatever’s left in brutal melee.

 

 

I have a feeling the “non compliant” (as BA/DA/SW are all liked together) chapters will have one of the following:

 

(Doing SW because examples of what I mean come to mind easier):

 

A. the SW do not like to follow rules or structures. As such, you may choose what Combat Doctrine is active on which Turn of the game, but each Doctrine can only be active for a single Turn each per game.

 

B. the SW are a brutal unforgiving force that operates apart from the rest of the Imperium. As such, rather than following the Combat Doctrines set forth in the Codex Astartes, SW have the follow abilities active at all times:

-Keen Senses: whenever an opposing force arrives from Reserves within range of a SW unit’s shooting weapons, on a 5+ that SW unit may fire a weapon as if it were the shooting phase.

-Quest for Glory: any SW unit that attacks a Character or Monster in the Fight phase may make 1 additional attack for each unmodified To Hit roll of 6.

-Something something

 

I have a feeling for BA it will be like

 

The Blood Angels Strike from the sky in a blaze of sound and fury like the mythical Day of Judgement from past eons.

 

Units with the BA keyword that also have the Fly keyword or Teleportarium ability may arrive from Reserves on the first Turn. In addition, all models with the BA keyword that have Moved towards the enemy or arrived from Reserves in the first game Turn may re-roll failed saves Until the start of the next Battle Round.

 

Of course that example pigeonholes is a bit, but I’m thinking of things that would give us an interesting flavor without having just Combat Doctrines in a different order or such.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Indefragable

[RedemptionNL]

Aggressors now being able to fire twice on Overwatch even if they moved in their previous Movement phase is also a nice buff to them. I should really pick up a box or two of them one day.

[Spyros]

How do we feel about Auto Bolt rifles now they 're assault 3?

Before the update they were the same as the Bolt carbine of the Reivers.

Now they can move and pour out a Hv.Bolter's worth of rate of fire.

I 'm tempted to build a 10-man squad with Auto Bolt rifles, that's 30 shots from 24" away...

Edited August 21, 2019 by Spyros

[Spagunk]

IMO, auto bolt rifles were an interesting, yet slightly ineffective option. I feel that making it assault 3 propels them to a legit option for mobile tacticals if you want. And with the new transport, that becomes a legitimate option as you can speed mid field, drop your assault bolt rifles en mass and have them push forward, covering your advance.

[Vermintide]

Rate of fire always seems to beat quality of fire, when it comes to infantry weapons. Maths says the extra shot is worth more than the AP in nearly all cases.

That said I think the regular bolt rifles, especially with bolter discipline, are still a valid option depending on your opponent. Maths might say you're better off with another shot, but you're not going to feel that way when your opponent keeps making all his saves with ease.

[Spyros]

Interesting points all of them. Got me into thinking.

I don't like the looks of the Impulsor. It's open-topped, reminds me of Land Speeder Storm, I would only use it for Phobos armoured troops, not Intercessors. An Intercessor with auto bolt rifle costs 18 and an Aggressor with boltstorm 37, that's 2 for one. In midfield the Aggressor wins if he doesn't move, the T5 is equalized by 1 extra wound from two Intercessors.

So it appears to me the Intercessors are more useful if they are always on the move and always use the full range of their weapons, 24".

On the move and full range, auto bolt beats the rifle. But if the rifle is immobile then it's probably better.

Hmmm, maybe a mix of both is best.

[Indefragable]

Call me crazy, but I think Intercessors’ sweet spot is either regular rifles or even stalkers.

 

I think the advantage for us with Intercessors is tough objective holders, and between Inceptors, Aggressors, vehicles, and so many other options, there are other swifter options for pushing up the board. Intercessors are a counterpoint option for holding the line and doing what SM Have classically some:

 

Hidden Content

There was an expression in 7th Ed:

 

What do Guardsmen do best?

Die holding objectives.

 

What do Tactical Marines do best?

Die slowly holding objectives

 

...of course that’s not their only use and I think a massed foot slog of Intercessors + other heavy infantry can provide target saturation pushing up the board.

[Zeller]

Would tacticals be best used as a more aggressive unit attacking enemy objectives while the bolt rifle intercessors hold home-side objectives in MSU? The idea being the tacticals would have the mix of weaponry allowing them to deal with various threats on the way to and at the target while the intercessors mostly dissuade people with rifles.

[The Unseen]

If your planning on pushing forward with your intercessors, which I do, I think the autos are the best choice.

Intercessors around the Standard of Sacrifice has become my go-to anchor for my alpha strike list.

They block smite spam super well, and it's tough enough that most opponents leave it alone, letting my intercessors take the midfield and later even my opponents objectives turn 3 or 4 after most everything is dead.

 

Being able to advance and still shoot is great, and the extra shot is better against everything but 2+ saves.

You aren't tempted to not move them to get bolter discipline, and if you do move, you get 3 shots at 18" instead of 2 at 15", plus as stated, the option to advance and fire for -1 bs.

 

But if you want a unit that will maybe move once turn 1 then hug an objective all game, the bolt rifles win because of their 30" threat range when they don't move.

 

I don't rate the stalker at all, 2 damage is still worse than 2 shots.

And the strat for them is hilariously expensive, if/when we get it, marine armies don't have 3 CP to burn to turn them into snipers for a turn.

That's what eliminators are for.

 

And for BA specifically, intercessors were already decent bullies in combat, now with shock assault, if you shoot and charge something, each intercessor is getting 6 total attacks, each, all str4, ap-, but half getting +1 to wound.

Which is kinda nuts for a troop unit.

Plus the sarge can go absolute ham.

 

Now my intercessors can keep up slightly better with my jump pack ancient and bikes easier.

Edited August 22, 2019 by The Unseen

[Arkhanist]

I ran the numbers on the new bolt rifle variant stats; i.e. stalker bolt rifle with D2, auto bolt rifle with 3 shots and bolt rifle assumed to get 2 shots, not including any strats.

Assuming a 5 man squad, 3+ to hit, the mean average of wounds are:

with auto bolt rifle / bolt rifle / stalker bolt rifle

Against GEQ: 4.44 / 3.70 / 2.22
Against MEQ: 1.67 / 1.67 / 1.11
Against Primaris: 1.67 / 1.67 / 2.22
Against Redemptor: 1.11 / 1.11 / 1.48

Against Repulsor: 0.56 / 0.56 / 0.74

When you look at the detailed wound probabilities distribution, auto bolt rifles are consistently very very slightly higher than bolt rifles (and have a higher max damage) but the mean smooths it out. 

I then tweaked the maths for moving versions of the same, i.e.

 

auto bolt rifles advancing (-1 to hit) / bolt rifles moved outside 15" (only 1 shot) / stalker bolt rifle moved (-1 to hit) :

Against GEQ: 3.33 / 1.85 / 1.66
Against MEQ: 1.25 / 0.83 / 0.83
Against Primaris: 1.25 / 0.83 / 1.66
Against Redemptor: 0.83 / 0.56 / 1.11
Against Repulsor: 0.42 / 0.28 / 0.56

So for units you plan to move around  - e.g. walking forwards to combat with a power sword etc - auto bolt rifles are better, the 3 AP0 shots are better (against GEQ) or as good as 2 AP -1 shots (everybody else), and significantly better than 1 shot - even advancing, they're nearly as good as static/rapid fire bolt rifles. They definitely make reiver bolt carbines with only 2 shots a poor relation.

Rapid fire bolt rifles are probably best when you want to use that 30" range with bolter discipline, and are 0 pts instead of 1 pt for the ABR. Going down to 1 shot by moving outside rapid fire range should be avoided if possible.

 

Stalkers are the best of the 3 when hanging in your backfield plinking against 2+ wound targets with their new D2 (and AP -2) though they're better at targeting primaris or other 2W infantry rather than vehicles as they're still not exactly heavy weapons.

 

If we get the CSM strats (or you take a detachment of CSM in order to get them) then bolt rifles benefit a bit more from the rapid fire 2 strat than auto bolt rifles do from the autohit under 12" strat (both cost 2CP) - I did the numbers for CSM using tactical doctrines. Both are legitimately shooty.

 

mean average of 5 man squad, no cover, using -1AP tactical doctrine, auto bolt rifles using Boltstorm strat (autohit under 12") next to a lieutenant against:

GEQ = 9.72

MEQ = 4.37

 

mean average of 5 man squad, no cover, using -1AP tactical doctrine, bolt rifles using Rapid Fire strat (double shots) next to a lieutenant or captain (same effect statistically) against:

GEQ = 10.37

MEQ = 5.19

 

And those rapid fire rifles with a captain AND lieutenant:

GEQ = 12.10 (ouch!)

MEQ = 6.05

 

Ultimately all three options are valid choices, depending up what role your intercessors are going to fill. Which is a big improvement on previously when bolt rifles were the only worthwhile choice.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Arkhanist

[Demoulius]

Hmmm the new rules confuse me abit. Not so much because they are unclear but about who gets what. For example the bolter discipline rules explains what it does but doesent mention who gets it

 

Im assuming everyone gets it? But RAW only the new units would? Im especially confused because the rules for shock assault clearly mention who get it..

[Vermintide]

Hmmm the new rules confuse me abit. Not so much because they are unclear but about who gets what. For example the bolter discipline rules explains what it does but doesent mention who gets it

 

Im assuming everyone gets it? But RAW only the new units would? Im especially confused because the rules for shock assault clearly mention who get it..

All Astartes. For the vanilla codex, If it has a gene seed, it's a Marine, it gets Angels of Death. Dreadnoughts are Marines inside a robo-coffin. Vehicles are driven by Marines. The only thing that misses out is servitors, because they're not Marines.

 

The only difference is that for Blood Angels (and DW/SW/DA/GK), they didn't give us the full Angels of Death. They added Shock Assault part of it, and we already had the Bolter Discipline part of it.

 

Essentially, the new Marines gimmick, as a faction, is that they follow the classic 3rd ed style of rules- Rapid fire is half distance or staying still. Charging gets an extra attack. And they shall know no fear.

 

All is right with the world.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Vermintide

[SnorriSnorrison]

All is right with the world.

Not as long as heretics still draw breath it isn’t.

[Demoulius]

 

Hmmm the new rules confuse me abit. Not so much because they are unclear but about who gets what. For example the bolter discipline rules explains what it does but doesent mention who gets it

 

Im assuming everyone gets it? But RAW only the new units would? Im especially confused because the rules for shock assault clearly mention who get it..

All Astartes. For the vanilla codex, If it has a gene seed, it's a Marine, it gets Angels of Death. Dreadnoughts are Marines inside a robo-coffin. Vehicles are driven by Marines. The only thing that misses out is servitors, because they're not Marines.

 

The only difference is that for Blood Angels (and DW/SW/DA/GK), they didn't give us the full Angels of Death. They added Shock Assault part of it, and we already had the Bolter Discipline part of it.

 

Essentially, the new Marines gimmick, as a faction, is that they follow the classic 3rd ed style of rules- Rapid fire is half distance or staying still. Charging gets an extra attack. And they shall know no fear.

 

All is right with the world.

 

Out of interest where can you see which Blood Angel units get the rule? I only see the rule explained and no mention of which units get it. Aside from the new units in the same FAQ which have it listed under their rules...

[RedemptionNL]

It was added during the Big FAQ back in April, after being a beta rule before that.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_update_April_2019_en.pdf

[Arkhanist]

Also confirmed in the latest space marines errata

 

Codex: Space Marines has updated certain datasheets. The following updates apply to the appropriate weapons and units in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, and Codex: Deathwatch. Note that these updates are in addition to gaining the Bolter Discipline ability, as described in a previous update.

 

Thast previous update being the April FAQ, as linked by RedemptionNL, page 6.

 

BOLTER DISCIPLINE: All Adeptus Astartes, Heretic Astartes and Fallen models gain this ability.

[Demoulius]

Thast previous update being the April FAQ, as linked by RedemptionNL, page 6.

 

BOLTER DISCIPLINE: All Adeptus Astartes, Heretic Astartes and Fallen models gain this ability.

 

Ah sweet. Now thats the part that I couldnt find :) cheers. Sorry for beeing overly paranoid but im having a local tourney coming up and if I cant cite where a rule is listed im abit squimish about people asking where things are listed. If I cant even point to the ruling myself why would my opponent take my word for it?

[BluejayJunior]

Thanks! I was looking it over today and was also starting to think that we no longer got Bolter Discipline. I didn't read that little blurb right at the beginning. 

[Indefragable]

So....according to the new Errata ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/warhammer_40000_space_marines_errata_en.pdf ), Chaplain Dreadnoughts for all chapters that can use them (that’s us) get the <Priest> keyword added which gives them access to Litanies from Codex: Space Marines.

 

There is no verbiage that says “only chapters in C:SM” or such.

 

Loophole!

 

Looks like Litanies are on the menu, boys!

 

Of course this is very likely to change, the not least b/c it’s likely an oversight, but also b/c the GW/FW coordination is abysmal these days. So have fun while it lasts, but Chaplain Dreads are reeeeeeally good for us at the moment.

 

Hidden Content

T7 W9 3+/5++ 6+++ FNP, does not degrade with wounds

+1S to all chapter units in 6”

Can now use Litanies as well

BS2+ with <Character> ...hide that TL lascannon!

Can Heroically Intervene as a character

 

 

Litanies of Battle (taken from 1d4chan, so interpret as you will) :

Hidden Content

From: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marines(8E)#Litanies_of_Battle

 

Litany of Hate: Default prayer, 6" aura of re-rolling melee hit rolls for your chapter.

 

Litany of Faith: 6" aura of FnP 5+++ vs mortal wounds for friendly chapter units. Not cumulative with other rules, as per usual (but stated regardless).

Extra protection vs witchery. Will help with whatever goes through the Librarian.

 

Catechism of Fire: Select a friendly chapter unit within 6". +1 to the wound roll when "resolving a shooting attack" against the closest enemy unit, meaning it would affect Overwatch too. Useful for flamer Vets/Aggressors and melta Vets/Devs. "Of Fire", get it?

Combine with Masterful Marksmanship (and careful target selection) to let your Sternguard wound MEQ on a 2+. It also helps sniper rifles reach the 6+ to wound, but only when targeting the nearest foe.

 

Exhortation of Rage: Select a friendly chapter unit within 6". Their unmodified 6s to hit in melee generate another attack with that weapon, which cannot proc extra attacks itself. Good when you already have a Captain/CM giving you a re-roll, not that two rolls interact per se - for a WS3+ model, the Captain will provide a *7/6 multiplier, the CM will provide *8/6, and this ability will act like a +1 modifier (which in this case is a *5/4 multiplier). A Lieutenant's aura will still provide exactly the same benefit as a Captain's for cheaper, as usual, and both will stack, as usual.

If you're already betting on exploding 6s, use it alongside Death to the Traitors or even Gene-wrought Might.

 

Mantra of Strength: He'll show you how it's done. +1A +1S to the Chaplain, and +1D to his melee weapons. 3D Crozius!

Smash Chaplain: Combine it with the 'Benediction of Fury' relic crozius (WS2+ S7 AP-2 D4) to kill characters, or a Master-crafted Power Fist for (S+1)X2 = WS3+ S10 AP-3 D2+1d3 (which is basically a better S10 D4 avg Thunder Hammer, which chaplains can't usually equip) to kill heavy infantry and bigger targets, like vehicles.

 

Recitation of Focus: Select a friendly chapter unit within 6". +1 to their hit rolls when shooting (including Overwatch, which won't make you any more accurate, but will make overcharging plasma safe). Safe plasma!

 

Canticle of Hate: Non-cumulative 6" aura of +2 to charge rolls, as well as +3" to pile in and consolidation moves.

Hnnng amazing for those of us who re-roll charges, increasing the odds of a successful 9" charge up to 85% (58.3% for non-rerolling lads). Do keep in mind the chaplain has to be on the field at the beginning of the battle round. Not even the Impulsor's broken disembark rules would help here, only a Jump Pack / Turboboosting Biker Manlet would have a chance.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Indefragable

[Xenith]

The auto bolt rifles (ABR) seem awesome to me now. Before they were just outclassed, but they seem great.

 

I already have 10 rifle equipped intercessors, so the next 5 from wake the dead will be autorifles. The LT with master crafted ABR also seems a great deal. 

[Panzer]

The Auto Bolt Rifle is pretty much always superior to the regular Bolt Rifle now.

 

(ignore the Tactical Doctrine part obviously)

 

[Spagunk]

Without access to doctrines, I'd say that auto bolt rifles are an auto-include. /shrug who knows what the future will hold I suppose.

[brother_b]

I’m just getting confused with all the rules, errata, new codices, new models, buffing/nerfing cycle, etc.

 

Not really a complaint just an observation. We need one long list of all rules in one simple place I guess. The FAQ page at GW doesn’t do it as I have to reference all sorts of different things.