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Infiltrators v Incursors


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#1
Brother Adelard

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I'm strangely tempted by a box of these chaps, but unsure as to which build to go with, (barring friendly scraps where I can 'counts as' one as the other.)

Aesthetically, I'm leaning towards Infiltrators over Incursors, but they seem a bit steeply priced by comparison.

Simply put: Lords of mathhammer, are they worth it?

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#2
sfPanzer

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To make it short, unless you really value the 12" bubble because you face GSC or whatever or you really want that Helix Adept, I don't see a reason why one should take Infiltrators over Incursors. Like, at all.

Infiltrators have a 24" Rapid fire 1 S4 AP0 D1 gun that autowounds on a 6 which is not even as good as having AP-1

Incursors have a 24" Rapid fire 1 S4 AP0 D1 gun that ignores cover which is either nothing or basically AP-1

 

Infiltrators have just the default CCW.

Incursors have Paired combat blades with SUser AP0 D1 with exploding 6s

 

Infiltrators can have either a budget apothecary or a guy that lets them benefit from a Phobos Captain and Lieutenant aura even if they aren't in range

Incursors can place a mine that deals 1d3(+1) Mortal wounds on a 2+

Infiltrators have a 12" anti-DS bubble which is great againt a handful of armies who rely on charges or short ranged shooting out of reserves like GSC and Orks

Incursors ignore to-hit modifier which is great against stuff like Stealth Suits, Raven Guard in cover, Eldar cheese, Alpha Legion


The mathhammer aspect ... well if they'd cost the same points then Infiltrators would be slightly better against targets not in cover and Incursors better against targets in cover. Also Incursors would be better in melee. However since Infiltrators are more expensive and their advantage was tiny to begin with it just means that Incursors are more points efficient. Also because they are Troops and that means with Incursors you gain more CP for less points.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#3
Brother Adelard

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Thanks, it's just a shame they don't look as good. I wonder if I can bastardise the accessories just enough to pick and choose. Say, Incursor bolters with Infiltrator helmets?
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#4
Subtleknife

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I wonder if they will be easy to magnatise

#5
Triszin

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To make it short, unless you really value the 12" bubble because you face GSC or whatever or you really want that Helix Adept, I don't see a reason why one should take Infiltrators over Incursors. Like, at all.

Infiltrators have a 24" Rapid fire 1 S4 AP0 D1 gun that autowounds on a 6 which is not even as good as having AP-1

Incursors have a 24" Rapid fire 1 S4 AP0 D1 gun that ignores cover which is either nothing or basically AP-1

 

Infiltrators have just the default CCW.

Incursors have Paired combat blades with SUser AP0 D1 with exploding 6s

 

Infiltrators can have either a budget apothecary or a guy that lets them benefit from a Phobos Captain and Lieutenant aura even if they aren't in range

Incursors can place a mine that deals 1d3(+1) Mortal wounds on a 2+

Infiltrators have a 12" anti-DS bubble which is great againt a handful of armies who rely on charges or short ranged shooting out of reserves like GSC and Orks

Incursors ignore to-hit modifier which is great against stuff like Stealth Suits, Raven Guard in cover, Eldar cheese, Alpha Legion


The mathhammer aspect ... well if they'd cost the same points then Infiltrators would be slightly better against targets not in cover and Incursors better against targets in cover. Also Incursors would be better in melee. However since Infiltrators are more expensive and their advantage was tiny to begin with it just means that Incursors are more points efficient. Also because they are Troops and that means with Incursors you gain more CP for less points.

im starting to think infils/incurs  are just a points trap.


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banana

#6
sfPanzer

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Thanks, it's just a shame they don't look as good. I wonder if I can bastardise the accessories just enough to pick and choose. Say, Incursor bolters with Infiltrator helmets?

 

You probably could. What makes Incursors stand out as Incursors the most are the camera thingys on the backpacks and the wide lense thingy on their bolters imo.


  • Brother Adelard likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#7
Brother Adelard

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I think it's the weird visor lenses I dislike though. They remind me of Cylons from BSG!

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#8
sfPanzer

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im starting to think infils/incurs  are just a points trap.

 

Well I always thought that Infiltrators are too expensive if you aren't regularly facing something like GSC. Incursors seem to be okay for their points though.

Ironically, if I'd care to add another stealthy unit to my army on top of my Eliminators, I'd probably go for the Infiltrators just to have the modeling/painting opportunity of the Helix Adept. :P


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#9
Happy-inquisitor

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Infiltrators are all about that 12" exclusion zone. They are a hard counter to pretty much anything that wants to drop out of reserves and pull off a long-range charge (only exception I can think of are Howling Banshees).

 

They are a reasonable counter to anything which wants to get into 12" range out of reserves, so units like drop-pod Sternguard will have their damage output halved by their inability to get into rapid fire range. 

 

If you value that then they are worth the points. Otherwise mathammer will not make them look good. I do not think mathammer is good at reflecting a rule which is a hard counter to some army builds but largely useless otherwise - you need to assess your tactics and your local meta.


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#10
CCE1981

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How many infiltrator squads do you realistically need? I just don’t see how a static, 3” range, mine that, yes causes mortal wounds, and costs 105pts (squad + mine) is that good.

#11
momerathe

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To make it short, unless you really value the 12" bubble because you face GSC or whatever or you really want that Helix Adept, I don't see a reason why one should take Infiltrators over Incursors. Like, at all.


I agree.. but.. if you're not after that anti-DS screen, I would just take a a squad of intercessors instead. Cheaper, with better guns.

#12
GrinNfool

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Eh would agree that infiltrators are overpriced... but only slightly because realistically you are paying for the 12" bubble, not for fighting squad.  Intercessors are going to be superior to etiher squad for that, and incursors main draw is they are the better forward position squad with slightly better melee, the mine occasionally helps but isn't that significant.  IMHO infiltrators will generally be more useful to have, because just 1-2 squads can cover most of your DS protection needs, especially if you roll the phobos captain in too.  Honestly could even put the infiltrators in a repulsor/exe at the first turn to protect them at the start, and getting out just before your opponents turn 2, or whenever you need to give your repulsor/exe some extra protection.  I think 1 infiltrator squad and/or captain can/should make its way into most marine lists.  To me the benefits of when you hit an opponent that it matters against far out weight the loss of 25 points and slight fire power loss vs interecessors.  There is a good assortment of armies it hurts, its not just GSC, denying a lot of rapid fire weapons too, like plasma.

 

The only real point I see for incursors are if you face a lot of hit modifier armies, I don't see why I wouldn't just bring scouts if all i wanted was the forward deploy, and for far cheaper.  Even vs hit modifiers, you still are only shooting 10-20 s4 shots... yay?  Also rather amusing, vs something like a venom the incursors only do the same avg damage as 5 intercessors... with with getting to ignore -1 to hit, so it very specifically needs to be t4 or less and have a hit modifier OR have a hit modifier + be in cover.


Edited by GrinNfool, 16 August 2019 - 10:42 PM.

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#13
Marshal van Trapp

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I'll be taking some incursors for a very specific goal, a BT pressure unit, 2 invictors and 2 incursors popped right in front of my opponent should keep him busy for long enough for my main force and deep strikers to get into positions to charge!

#14
Rommel44

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Incursor Squads are what I will be taking. As a White Scars player they just have far more potential and effectiveness with my Chapter Tactic, especially when it comes to the CC ability they bring compared to Infiltrators. Chapter Tactic also will play a factor, but for a Chapter like the White Scars, Incursor Squads are the easy choice here.

#15
Kallas

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They are a reasonable counter to anything which wants to get into 12" range out of reserves, so units like drop-pod Sternguard will have their damage output halved by their inability to get into rapid fire range.


Sternguard are probably the worst example for the 12" anti-deep strike, as they have a 15" Rapid Fire!

But I agree that it's a hard ability to straight up quantify. If you often face strong, short range deep strikers (eg, Genestealer Cults, Orks) then Infiltrators will have a large impact; if you don't, then Incursors will likely be better.

On the flip side, if you face a lot of to hit penalties (eg, Alaitoc Eldar) then Incursors will perform well; and if not, then they still have similar value to Infiltrators but cost less.

#16
Emicus

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Are bolters really the weapon of choice vs fliers and other -hit units? May as well use flamers... Like the invictor!

Edited by Emicus, 17 August 2019 - 05:24 AM.


#17
Kallas

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Are bolters really the weapon of choice vs fliers and other -hit units? May as well use flamers... Like the invictor!

 

Sure, that's not a great match-up, but there are numerous units that impose -Hit or BS modifiers. Incursors hit Culexus Assassins on 3s - very few units in the game can claim that.



#18
CaptainMarsh

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If you're looking for killing potential, Intercessors win out over all of them. That means you're looking at what else the squad brings other than straight murder. If your meta is strong in cover and/or negative to it mods, than the Incursors are a better (and cheaper) choice. If your meta is strong in deep strike charging and the like, than the Infiltrators can be very useful.

The Incursors edge out in cost. Shooting wise, the Infiltrator's auto-wound on a 6 to hit should not be underestimated. Bypassing another gate in the dice pool is rather nice. Defensive cover and negative mods being negated by the Incursors is very strong in certain situations. Both have their place. Incursors are better in CC, straight up.

The biggest straight up advantage with the Infiltrators is their comms allowing you to position the Phobo Cap and Phobo Lieutenant where you want them on the board. This gives you some good deployment and movement flexibility.

Both have their place. I think the Incursors are a better straight unit due to ability and cost. Having said that, if you plan on running a Phobos detachment/army, then the Infiltrators may edge them out. Either depends on your meta though.


Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#19
Emicus

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"Infinite range" hit/wound reroll looks so good. And what I really want them for is the no-ds bubble.

But the incursors knives and ignoring cover is so good..

Its almost like they are well balanced, since there isn't an obvious choice!

#20
Xerxus

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I would find the Infiltrators more attractive if the Phobos Captain and the Phobos Lieutenant had competitive weapon options. With power swords they could at least offer some beatstick potential, as is I'd rather field a regular captain with a power fist.
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#21
sfPanzer

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I don't rate the Infiltrators ability to benefit from the phobos HQs auras without being in range very highly because if you don't concentrate your forces on one flank you won't be able to make much of a difference with just bolters and if you do concentrate your forces on a flank you might as well just deploy your HQs there anyway.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#22
CaptainMarsh

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Depends on the nature of your battle, the army, and the deployment zone. With the Phobos Captain being more expensive than I honestly think his gear and stats warrant, having the ability to impact rolls across the field while supporting other elements (tonight it was an Executioner Park, which also acted nicely as screening against Vindicare sniping) without needing to stretch himself is a nice chance to have. Whether that is worth the +10 points a squad, a squad that is already +3 points over an Incursor per model, depends on factors that are unique to you.


Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#23
Ishagu

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Depends on the nature of your battle, the army, and the deployment zone. With the Phobos Captain being more expensive than I honestly think his gear and stats warrant, having the ability to impact rolls across the field while supporting other elements (tonight it was an Executioner Park, which also acted nicely as screening against Vindicare sniping) without needing to stretch himself is a nice chance to have. Whether that is worth the +10 points a squad, a squad that is already +3 points over an Incursor per model, depends on factors that are unique to you.


Phobos Captain got a decent drop in cost.
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-~Ishagu~-


#24
CaptainMarsh

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Depends on the nature of your battle, the army, and the deployment zone. With the Phobos Captain being more expensive than I honestly think his gear and stats warrant, having the ability to impact rolls across the field while supporting other elements (tonight it was an Executioner Park, which also acted nicely as screening against Vindicare sniping) without needing to stretch himself is a nice chance to have. Whether that is worth the +10 points a squad, a squad that is already +3 points over an Incursor per model, depends on factors that are unique to you.


Phobos Captain got a decent drop in cost.

 

Oh, he did for sure. I still think he is too expensive considering his gear. He just went from kinda laughably bad to very specialized.


Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#25
Ishagu

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That's not really true at all. He's a great backfield defensive unit because of his aura.

And now if you run an Infiltrator focused army everyone can have re rolls to hit and wound anywhere on the table? That's very significant.

-~Ishagu~-





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