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Infiltrators v Incursors


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#26
CaptainMarsh

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That's not really true at all. He's a great backfield defensive unit because of his aura.

And now if you run an Infiltrator focused army everyone can have re rolls to hit and wound anywhere on the table? That's very significant.

 As someone who is arguing in his favor in this scenario, I agree: If you use him in a specific Phobos army with Infiltrators with the Comms Array, he has a great benefit. If you do all that, which is separate from the point I was making regarding Phobos Captain alone and edges into the benefits of the Infiltrators I was discussing above, which is the topic of the thread: Infiltrators vs Incursors.


Edited by CaptainMarsh, 17 August 2019 - 07:13 AM.

Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#27
Ishagu

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Well of course. No one has to run the unit, you can use a, regular Primaris Captain instead.

As for Infiltrators vs Incursors. One unit is more defensive but you're paying the points for it. I think Incursors are overall more attractive with their significantly lower costs.

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#28
momerathe

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*deleted*

I fail at reading comprehension msn-wink.gif

Edited by momerathe, 17 August 2019 - 08:10 AM.


#29
CCE1981

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I would find the Infiltrators more attractive if the Phobos Captain and the Phobos Lieutenant had competitive weapon options. With power swords they could at least offer some beatstick potential, as is I'd rather field a regular captain with a power fist.


As Ultramarines/Successors, one can exchange their Combat knife for a decent relic.

#30
Brother Adelard

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Am I right in thinking that the special rule which prevents Incursors being affected by negative hit or BS modifiers, also prevents positive ones as well? (Not that I can think of any off the top of my head...)


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#31
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It does, they don't get any type of modifier.

#32
Emicus

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Is there any positive hit modifiers for marines?

#33
CaptainMarsh

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Is there any positive hit modifiers for marines?

Are there any positive modifiers for Marines? Target Priority is the one that comes to mind. I don't remember off the top of my head if there are others.


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Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#34
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Is there any positive hit modifiers for marines?

Are there any positive modifiers for Marines? Target Priority is the one that comes to mind. I don't remember off the top of my head if there are others.

 

Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic would be one.


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#35
Vanger

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Is there any positive hit modifiers for marines?

Chaplains Recitation of Focus gives you +1 to hit.

Incursors are a situational unit, that's good agains units that utilise hit modifiers and cover. I wouldn't want to bring them in a general list. On the other hand Infiltrators are more expensive, but they hae a 12" deny bubble. And it's not only GSC or orks. There are plenty armies that can and want to deep strike near you. Daemon bombs, Gate of infinity, On Wings of Fire, OBEL, Inceptors, Drop Pods, etc.
If you want to hold onto your doctrines, then you have to go full marine anyway, so no cheap screening units for you. In this case I would take a "phobos batallion". 3x5 infiltrators with comms, PhoCap and PhoLt. The infiltrators can protect your rear from unwelcome guests, screen out any deep strikers, counter act any enemy infiltrators, camp on objectives from turn 1, etc. They still get some re-rolls, which makes them more effective and the PhoCap and PhoLt can party in the back with your artilery/hellblasters/stalkercessors/eleminators. But even if you are not putting them in front, 3 units of them can cover your whole deployment zone, camp on rear objectives and deny the enemy last turn point grabs like LineBreaker with some re-deployment shenanigans or the last minute drop pod, people are planing on.

I'm not saying that Infiltrators are now a must include or the above is the best use of your points, but I see more tactical application in the infiltrators than in incursors. And yeah, the later unit looks silly too :D


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#36
sfPanzer

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Is there any positive hit modifiers for marines?

Chaplains Recitation of Focus gives you +1 to hit.

Incursors are a situational unit, that's good agains units that utilise hit modifiers and cover. I wouldn't want to bring them in a general list. On the other hand Infiltrators are more expensive, but they hae a 12" deny bubble. And it's not only GSC or orks. There are plenty armies that can and want to deep strike near you. Daemon bombs, Gate of infinity, On Wings of Fire, OBEL, Inceptors, Drop Pods, etc.
If you want to hold onto your doctrines, then you have to go full marine anyway, so no cheap screening units for you. In this case I would take a "phobos batallion". 3x5 infiltrators with comms, PhoCap and PhoLt. The infiltrators can protect your rear from unwelcome guests, screen out any deep strikers, counter act any enemy infiltrators, camp on objectives from turn 1, etc. They still get some re-rolls, which makes them more effective and the PhoCap and PhoLt can party in the back with your artilery/hellblasters/stalkercessors/eleminators. But even if you are not putting them in front, 3 units of them can cover your whole deployment zone, camp on rear objectives and deny the enemy last turn point grabs like LineBreaker with some re-deployment shenanigans or the last minute drop pod, people are planing on.

I'm not saying that Infiltrators are now a must include or the above is the best use of your points, but I see more tactical application in the infiltrators than in incursors. And yeah, the later unit looks silly too biggrin.png

 

 

Infiltrators are just as situational. Most deep striking units are fine with deep striking outside of 12" since 9" charges are rather unlikely to work anyway and most weapons have more than 12" range.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#37
Black Blow Fly

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Except most deep striking units are meleecentric.
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#38
SkimaskMohawk

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And you can also use scouts as cheap screens still.
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#39
Xerxus

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I would not focus on the special abilities of incursors too much. They are simply scouts with a 3+, two wounds and two attacks. A minimum infiltrator squad pays 110 pts instead of 95 pts to get a 12" deepstrike deny, otherwise they are basically equals.

#40
CCE1981

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The more I think about it the more Incursors confuses me. Make the Deep Strike denial a unit upgrade and the two units weapons as options.

#41
SkimaskMohawk

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They're only equals until they're not.

Each of them have special abilities that can be very useful against the right thing. The incursors shooting is way better against things that like cover and modifiers. Like the new raven guard, or jormungandr nids, or alaitoc elements. Infiltrators are much better against key melee deepstrikers. It happens that I have a friend who has jormungandr nids and another with orks so I'll have use for both
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#42
Dracos

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I would not focus on the special abilities of incursors too much. They are simply scouts with a 3+, two wounds and two attacks. A minimum infiltrator squad pays 110 pts instead of 95 pts to get a 12" deepstrike deny, otherwise they are basically equals.

 

I'm going to need to squads of 5 of these and I think your last point hits it on the head. Situational special abilities maes it a coin toss, except for .... the Incursor is cheaper, and that's what I want in my Primaris Troop choices.

 

If only the Infiltrator just didn't look so much better imo.


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#43
Mandragola

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I’m kind of starting to think it’s a clear win for the infiltrators and that incursors simply aren’t that good in a TAC army.

Neither squad is all that killy for its cost. If you’re charging them in on turn 1 it’s likely to tie up a tank or to bully something that can’t fight much anyway, so the incursors’ slight advantage doesn’t matter too much.

Likewise their bolt guns, though both have advantages in some situations, are simply not all that powerful. Incursors are not a counter to hemlocks. They kind of are to Culexus assassins - though those are bad against marines anyway and your opponent can just pick something else.

We’ve got an infiltrating unit that can kill stuff now - the invictor. It’s not all that much more expensive than a squad of these guys and it can properly rip things up, especially thanks to its 10” move.

So to me, the only real distinctions are the bubble and the cost. And when it comes down to it I do think the bubble is well worth 15 points per unit. There are many games where it will be a game-winning ability. If I’m going to take a screening unit then I think I’d like to take a very, very good one that causes stuff like bloodletter bombs to be completely useless. Better a squad that costs 110 and lives than one for 95 that dies.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#44
sfPanzer

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.


  • Kallas likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#45
Brother Adelard

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Has anyone tried proxying the Incursors using the existing Infiltrators while we wait for the kit? I think I will do what I said above, bastardise the two types. (Infiltrator heads, Incursor knives, and a mix of infiltrator bolters and Incursor backpacks,) and play them as whatever I fancy on the day.
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#46
Mandragola

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.

My point here is that infiltrators will still beat up those kinds of units. It’s true that incursors will do it a bit better, but I think it’s a case of “win more”. There’s nothing much that an incursor squad can take on that infiltrators couldn’t. There are obviously a lot of units that neither wants to be anywhere near!

Also, The ability to ignore hit mods is great - but those can very often be negated anyway by moving closer to the target - which either unit can do very easily.
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C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#47
sfPanzer

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.

My point here is that infiltrators will still beat up those kinds of units. It’s true that incursors will do it a bit better, but I think it’s a case of “win more”. There’s nothing much that an incursor squad can take on that infiltrators couldn’t. There are obviously a lot of units that neither wants to be anywhere near!

Also, The ability to ignore hit mods is great - but those can very often be negated anyway by moving closer to the target - which either unit can do very easily.

 

 

I would agree with you if they weren't also cheaper and the 12" bubble only a situational benefit as most armies really don't care about having to drop outside of 12" anyway. IF they care it's a huge thing, but most of the time it simply is not the case.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#48
Mandragola

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.

My point here is that infiltrators will still beat up those kinds of units. It’s true that incursors will do it a bit better, but I think it’s a case of “win more”. There’s nothing much that an incursor squad can take on that infiltrators couldn’t. There are obviously a lot of units that neither wants to be anywhere near!

Also, The ability to ignore hit mods is great - but those can very often be negated anyway by moving closer to the target - which either unit can do very easily.

I would agree with you if they weren't also cheaper and the 12" bubble only a situational benefit as most armies really don't care about having to drop outside of 12" anyway. IF they care it's a huge thing, but most of the time it simply is not the case.
Fair enough. For me that situational benefit is worth 15 points per unit, but I can see that it wouldn’t be for everyone.

I’ve got the infiltrators from shadowspear but I’ve not quite built them all because I don’t want duplicate guys. I’ll probably get an incursor box and mix the parts up, then try out both.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#49
Lemondish

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.


That was my initial read as well, but playing Imperial Fists means I get that everywhere. Thus, with a slight reduction in comparative value I really only see the mine as being a key piece of differentiation.

I can imagine it being both amazing at screening and punishing units pushing towards objectives while also being potentially useless and ignored.
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#50
momerathe

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I honestly think incursors are the biggest dud of the new units.

 

Incursors may be a better general use unit than Infiltrators, but Intercessors are a better general use unit than Incursors. If you don't need the deepstrike denial of Infiltrators, Intercessors every time.  Ignores cover? Against the majority of targets you could just take the -1 AP instead. Sure you can hit eldar flyers, but what are you going to do with them with two S4 AP0 shots? Incursors are a solution looking for a problem.






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