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Infiltrators v Incursors


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#51
Ishagu

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Funny, I think the exact opposite. Both are situational but Incursors are the better general use unit since there are always soft targets trying to hide in cover and they are cheaper as well.

That was my initial read as well, but playing Imperial Fists means I get that everywhere. Thus, with a slight reduction in comparative value I really only see the mine as being a key piece of differentiation.

I can imagine it being both amazing at screening and punishing units pushing towards objectives while also being potentially useless and ignored.

I think certain options are better for certain chapters.

For examples, Ultras really make Bolt Rifles great, whilst other chapters might get more out of the Auto Bolt Rifles.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Raven Guard and Iron Hands get in terms of Doctrine bonuses.

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#52
Marshal van Trapp

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Fair enough. For me that situational benefit is worth 15 points per unit, but I can see that it wouldn’t be for everyone.

I’ve got the infiltrators from shadowspear but I’ve not quite built them all because I don’t want duplicate guys. I’ll probably get an incursor box and mix the parts up, then try out both.


That's actually exactly what I plan to do, I was going to do 2 min squads of infiltrators and 2 min squads of incursors using the double bodies from shadowspear (and maybe converting those helix adepts into comms guys) the infiltrators and incursors only have 2 big differences, the comms on infiltrators are cameras/sensors on incursors and the incursors have some kind of multi visor on their heads and guns, I figure if I find enough scanner/camera sensor bits I can make them work as incursors too (also I have like 100 combat knives I can throw on them too)

#53
ERJAK

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That's not really true at all. He's a great backfield defensive unit because of his aura.

And now if you run an Infiltrator focused army everyone can have re rolls to hit and wound anywhere on the table? That's very significant.


You could always have reroll to hit and wound anywhere on the table. They're called jumppacks.

#54
Lemondish

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I honestly think incursors are the biggest dud of the new units.

Incursors may be a better general use unit than Infiltrators, but Intercessors are a better general use unit than Incursors. If you don't need the deepstrike denial of Infiltrators, Intercessors every time. Ignores cover? Against the majority of targets you could just take the -1 AP instead. Sure you can hit eldar flyers, but what are you going to do with them with two S4 AP0 shots? Incursors are a solution looking for a problem.

Intercessors can't scout deploy.

I think certain options are better for certain chapters.

For examples, Ultras really make Bolt Rifles great, whilst other chapters might get more out of the Auto Bolt Rifles.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Raven Guard and Iron Hands get in terms of Doctrine bonuses.

I do not disagree.

The biggest problem being that it's only possible to know what units and wargear options work best with WS and Ultras. Everyone else is a great big question mark.

And if the rumours pan out, that'll be the case for almost 6 months.

It's probably best to assess baseline validity now so that when they finally release the full Codex rules we can reassess.

That's not really true at all. He's a great backfield defensive unit because of his aura.

And now if you run an Infiltrator focused army everyone can have re rolls to hit and wound anywhere on the table? That's very significant.

You could always have reroll to hit and wound anywhere on the table. They're called jumppacks.

Haha funny joke

Edited by Lemondish, 20 August 2019 - 07:40 PM.


#55
Dracos

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Intercessors can't scout deploy.

 

Another good reason to join the Sons of Corax  ;)


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#56
Lemondish

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Intercessors can't scout deploy.


Another good reason to join the Sons of Corax ;)

You can't scout deploy in matched play either, so I have one less reason to join the 40k version of My Chemical Romance :P

#57
Dracos

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Do you mean "Concealed Positions"? Because that's what SftS is all about. I assume I'm missing something though.


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#58
Mandragola

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Yeah the sfts stratagem doesn’t currently exist. Presumably it’ll be in the ravenguard book, if and when that gets published.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#59
Lemondish

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Do you mean "Concealed Positions"? Because that's what SftS is all about. I assume I'm missing something though.

That Stratagem, for purposes of matched play, was changed to a scout move. Basically, it changed so that a single unit now receives a free 9” move before the game begins, rather than scout deployment.

But at the same time, it doesn't exist in the new codex.

Edited by Lemondish, 21 August 2019 - 09:54 AM.


#60
Black_Star

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I think that both choices are specialty troops and really the decision between the units has more to do with the desired role you want them to have.

Infiltrators are a defensive choice that either holds an objective or protects your army from deep striking. The main reason to take them is if your army has trouble with deep striking units.

Incursors are an aggressive choice that are meant to go after opposing scout units or devastors that are hanging out in terrain all game.

I don't think either choice is better than scouts or Intercessors so I'd only use them as the main troop choice in a themed vanguard list.

#61
Mandragola

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I think that both choices are specialty troops and really the decision between the units has more to do with the desired role you want them to have.

Infiltrators are a defensive choice that either holds an objective or protects your army from deep striking. The main reason to take them is if your army has trouble with deep striking units.

Incursors are an aggressive choice that are meant to go after opposing scout units or devastors that are hanging out in terrain all game.

I don't think either choice is better than scouts or Intercessors so I'd only use them as the main troop choice in a themed vanguard list.

 

I do actually think they’re quite a lot better than scouts – though the extra cost is pretty significant. Scouts offer a way to get a cheap battalion and a useful screening unit that will die in a stiff breeze. Incursors and infiltrators give you some actual value in combat.

 

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that scouts are now obsolete, but I prefer the phobos guys. I find that scouts don’t work too well as a screen because they’re very often dead by the time deep strikers arrive.


C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#62
BlackTriton

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Im looking into pressuring with infiltration, using a successor with bolter fusilliade and whirlwind of rage.
It makes the unit reliable without support.
Incursor are then the better choice, being cheaper and 2 additionnal hit on a 6 is significant.
To round up the battalion you can have a smash captain, smashy chapy or a Ph. Librarian.

Edited by BlackTriton, 21 August 2019 - 12:40 PM.


#63
Boldthreat

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Im looking into pressuring with infiltration, using a successor with bolter fusilliade and whirlwind of rage.
It makes the unit reliable without support.
Incursor are then the better choice, being cheaper and 2 additionnal hit on a 6 is significant.
To round up the battalion you can have a smash captain, smashy chapy or a Ph. Librarian.


I’m using the same successor chapter tactics and I agree with you. I really like Incursors.

#64
TempestBlade

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Bolter fusillade is crazy when you see how much Primaris stuff have bolt things. I was thinking bolter fusillade and master artisan. The hit percentage will be high and you get a reroll wound 1/squad
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#65
CCE1981

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Anyone done the math on Infiltrators with comms array making full use out of the Captain and Lieutenant vs Incessors?

Put another way does the reroll 1s to hit and wound equate to the +1 attack? Sure spike damage on Incursors could be higher but on average would Infiltrators be equivalent or better with that re-roll?

#66
SkimaskMohawk

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Infiltrators do more by a little bit against T4. 7.18 vs 6.6 wounds caused in the first round of combat.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 21 August 2019 - 10:03 PM.

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#67
The Unseen

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For now, neither.
They both need a significant price drop to be viable.
It'd be fine if they were utility choices that did less damage than intercessors but cost similarly.
Instead they cost substantially more per model, for same durability, worse guns, and other than infiltrate, niche and circumstantial special rules.

They really suffer when you compare them to scouts though, as theyre just better than either choice.
You get nearly same number of wounds per pt, but in a better spread, and TWICE the offense.
And more versatile, as you have 2 squads of 5, which also gives you more cp.

At their current price, I'd expect at least ap-1 on their guns or something.
But as is they deliver close range nearly generic bolter fire in an army full of more of the same.

"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#68
Ishagu

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You do realise that infiltrators are a hard counter to any unit that deploys or re-deploys close to your lines?

GSC, Da Jump Orks, Teleporting units, etc are all pushed back. How many points do you think that kind of defence is worth?
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#69
PiñaColada

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You do realise that infiltrators are a hard counter to any unit that deploys or re-deploys close to your lines?

GSC, Da Jump Orks, Teleporting units, etc are all pushed back. How many points do you think that kind of defence is worth?

It's worth quite a bit but I agree with what seems to be the consensus in this thread, infiltrators just cost a bit too much. If you're facing deepstrike heavy armies the infiltrators are easily worth their points but assuming you don't list tailor then it's just a big gamble whether or not to include them. This is also due to the fact that if you really want to deepstrike deny then a single unit will rarely be enough, instead requiring 2 or 3 which is 220/330 points instead of 170/255 points of intercessors. That really adds up and could quite often feel like a waste of points.

I think incursors are fine at their current price point with a nice balance of slightly more expensive & weaker offense than intercessors but a lot more utility. Infiltrators at 19-20ppm would be where I'd place their worth at the moment I think. It's a shame since infiltrators look so much cooler than incursors IMO.



#70
Ishagu

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If you go to an event I don't think you can leave them out of a list.

Now that Astartes want to be mono faction we won't have disposable screening unit. The Infiltrators offer a substantial defence.

Over the course of 3-5 games you will most likely face such a list.

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#71
Subtleknife

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For a primaris only army I think they are an auto take. Especially as ultras, as I can offensively deploy then redeploy if I lose the roll. Gives me massive board control before the game kicks off.
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#72
Son of Sacrifice

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If you go to an event I don't think you can leave them out of a list.

Now that Astartes want to be mono faction we won't have disposable screening unit. The Infiltrators offer a substantial defence.

Over the course of 3-5 games you will most likely face such a list.


So how many would you be looking to run? 3 squads of 5? 2 squads of 10?

#73
PiñaColada

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If you go to an event I don't think you can leave them out of a list.

Now that Astartes want to be mono faction we won't have disposable screening unit. The Infiltrators offer a substantial defence.

Over the course of 3-5 games you will most likely face such a list.

That's of course true, but how much are you hurting yourself in the other matchups? I'm not sold on it but most of the deepstrike threats I've faced haven't been GSC so maybe I'm underestimating the amount of sub9" deepstrikers that are out there. Otherwise deepstrikes are still pretty easy to block out entirely, especially if you were to use incursors. That way you can ensure there are no 9" placements between them and your DZ so any 9" charge would have to come from the front, which is still a threat but many armies can pull off those charges without the use of deepstrikes anyways.

I guess time will tell, but I personally don't think they'll be considered auto-includes.

 

So how many would you be looking to run? 3 squads of 5? 2 squads of 10?

 

I'd take 3x5 if I were to bring them. Fills out slots better and lets you really utilise that 12" by careful placement. Since they don't have any real good buffs targeting that squad anyways (that I can think of) smaller units should be preferable.



#74
Ishagu

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I think two squads of 5 should be the minimum. With good positioning you're protecting a very large area.
Also this means that the loss of the units isn't crippling should they be destroyed in a bad match up.

Against opponents where their ability doesn't come in to play simply use them conservatively or as more durable Scouts.

Without them I see crippling match ups against GSC, Orks using Da Jump or some teleporting shooting unit.

Of course, you could go a different route and run 3 or more large squads with the comms upgrade and a phobos Captain and a Lt as HQs, thus making them very efficient infantry units in shooting and CC no matter where they deploy. The Phobos captain himself is highly defensive also.

Edited by Ishagu, 22 August 2019 - 09:38 AM.

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#75
Lemondish

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For now, neither.
They both need a significant price drop to be viable.
It'd be fine if they were utility choices that did less damage than intercessors but cost similarly.
Instead they cost substantially more per model, for same durability, worse guns, and other than infiltrate, niche and circumstantial special rules.

They really suffer when you compare them to scouts though, as theyre just better than either choice.
You get nearly same number of wounds per pt, but in a better spread, and TWICE the offense.
And more versatile, as you have 2 squads of 5, which also gives you more cp.

At their current price, I'd expect at least ap-1 on their guns or something.
But as is they deliver close range nearly generic bolter fire in an army full of more of the same.

This has not been indicative of my experience since Shadowspear released.

Infiltrators have been my MVP too many times to count.

Because the offense isn't important. I do not need to maximize Bolter shots. What I need is a durable forward element that requires more attention to remove than is truly warranted for the immediate threat.

These 2 wound 3+ models (almost always 2+ because they're almost always in cover) have been significantly more durable and longer lasting for me than Scouts. Furthermore, where Infiltrators shine is against any army invested in early assault moves from repositioning tools. These are outfit denied by Infiltrators. Sure, scouts can also screen those threats, but only Infiltrators hard counter them. With scouts, you've still surrendered significant movement. With Infiltrators, you've turned off that movement. Thus, they need to be dealt with if the opponent wants to expand their control of the board. Scouts die like flies, but these guys need to be focused and that takes so much attention off things like Aggressors, Hellblasters, and Intercessors.

This has been a massive benefit against a variety of army builds for me and they've been well worth their points for providing early board control and screening. Now they're even scarier with Angels of Death. GSC, Orks, 1k Sons, Guard with drop plasma, plaguebearer spam (the Infiltrator durability helps me stop that horde midfield for several turns), and soon to be efficient against drop pods.

And aside from the Bolter shots (which I have no shortage of), this is all while doing what scouts do, but better.

I will not argue with point reductions because they ultimately make my army better without me having to do anything. I will say that my experience with these units already makes them valuable at their current point cost.

Edited by Lemondish, 22 August 2019 - 11:37 AM.

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