New "Updates" and the Chaplain: Such a waste

[Qui-Gon]

I trust that you are being honest in your position, however it is provably wrong.

 

Starting in February, where Games Workshop came out with the bolter discipline rule, it specified the Terminator and Biker keywords. There was significant argument in the community about whether Terminator and Biker models in a Veteran unit were valid users of the bolter discipline rule, because it specified the keyword.

 

Games Workshop eventually decided to fix the issue entirely by actually changing the Mixed Unit rule for Veterans to state that for bolter discipline, bikers have the Biker keyword and Terminators have the Terminator keyword.

 

This is clear cut and has happened just this year.

 

So yes, bolded words are always keywords when it comes to games workshop's rules. There is no instance where a bolded word is not a keyword. So to try to argue that a bolded word here is not a keyword is attempting to create a precedent that has not existed up until now.

 

By making the words bolded, they have indicated that it is a keyword that needs to be met to use the ability. Right now, Aggressor and Reiver models do not have the appropriate keyword to be able to use their bespoke rules.

Also, your argument that bolded words are not always keywords, or need to be called out as keywords is itself flawed. Afterall, in a rule such as "Watch Master" which states "all friendly DEATHWATCH models...." it doesn't need to specify that it is a keyword it is calling out. The font and bolded nature indicates that is the keyword. If you don't have the keyword, it doesn't work.

[Sloeberjong]

You're being pretty anal about this. It's a game for fun, not criminal justice or contractually binding restrictions. Besides, even in law not everything has to be written out to this ridiculous degree. Logic and sense do play a major role in law.

 

Now an analysis, FAQ for Deathwatch Intercessor squads says: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, Aggressor models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.’

 

Same for Reivers and Terror Troops.

 

Are Aggressors Aggressor models? If yes then they can shoot twice as per FAQ. 

Are Reivers Reiver models? If yes then they can use Terror Troops as per FAQ. 

 

It's not rocket science so please don't try to make it into it. An Agressor is an Aggressor model is it not? It's got nothing to do with keywords either.

 

Also, if you really want to go that route then keywords are always in CAPS. The texts in the FAQ are not, bolded or no. I don't know what the consequences would be of that, but hey, there it is. 

 

Now excuse me while I'm gonna go and have fun with my little toy soldiers who will definitely use firestorm in the intercessor squads since it's obviously clear from the FAQ. Anybody who argues otherwise is probably not a person I'd like to play with anyway. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Sloeberjong

[Black Knight]

The problem with Keywords is GWs fault because they refuse to come out and write down in print exactly how they work. We still are working on assumptions which we pretty much know are right but because they wont be put on the record we are constantly confronted with these problems.

 

Sloeberjong you are discussing two different problems, yes this is a toy game but it also has a competitive edge, now any game outside a tournament I would allow my competitor to interpret their rules and enjoy the game with them but that still does not change the fact that there is a tournament scene and these rules NEED to be laid out in black and white lawyer speak because of that.

 

I want the rules to be irrefutable so that these issues are a rarity, especially when someone I play blurs the line when it comes to playing casual/competitive, I do have friends where the causal game is competitive because that is how we enjoy it, I am not playing Starcraft with them not to beat them . Having rules that are easy to read and understand help you play causally with anyone because you do not have to worry about playing someone that is trying to game the system, the system just says no. The keyword system is just as important as the unit statistics system, I would definitely mention to a friend if they are a little lax with the measuring of movement on a regular basis, even in a casual setting. 8" is not 6".

 

GW just needs to tell us the rules of the system and what the difference between Caps and non-caps is if there is even any.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Black_Knight

[Sloeberjong]

The problem with Keywords is GWs fault because they refuse to come out and write down in print exactly how they work. We still are working on assumptions which we pretty much know are right but because they wont be put on the record we are constantly confronted with these problems.

 

Sloeberjong you are discussing two different problems, yes this is a toy game but it also has a competitive edge, now any game outside a tournament I would allow my competitor to interpret their rules and enjoy the game with them but that still does not change the fact that there is a tournament scene and these rules NEED to be laid out in black and white lawyer speak because of that.

 

I want the rules to be irrefutable so that these issues are a rarity, especially when someone I play blurs the line when it comes to playing casual/competitive, I do have friends where the causal game is competitive because that is how we enjoy it, I am not playing Starcraft with them not to beat them . Having rules that are easy to read and understand help you play causally with anyone because you do not have to worry about playing someone that is trying to game the system, the system just says no. The keyword system is just as important as the unit statistics system, I would definitely mention to a friend if they are a little lax with the measuring of movement on a regular basis, even in a casual setting. 8" is not 6".

 

GW just needs to tell us the rules of the system and what the difference between Caps and non-caps is if there is even any.

 

 

I'm not though. Tournament players should also relax, since this game never has been and never will be fit for perfect tournament play. This rule from the FAQ is really clear as day and players and tournament organizers alike should chill out and play a nice game. I guess people can and will always find some dumb loophole or intentionally misinterpret some rule. I remember a time where tournaments were simply opportunities to play different players, nothing else. IMO the whole current tournament scene is completely asinine. If you want what you state then by all means go play chess (it's fair, balanced and clear). WH40k are literally toy soldiers. People just tend to try and find nonsensical stuff from people who write game rules. GW ruleswriters are not lawyers, so don't expect that level of written details in the rules. I think GW deliberatly trolls us because of the dumb questions tourney players ask because they lack the ability to think logically for themselves. 

 

I also fail to see what keywords have to do with this particular issue. They mention the presence of Aggressor models, nothing more, nothing less. 

 

These backward discussions are why I never play tournaments outside our own club anymore. Tournament players are unsympathetic anusses, with some exceptions maybe. I'd rather throw a game and lose the tourney than discuss asinine stuff like this. I'd be like, fine, have it your way and just pack up. The rule is clear, the FAQ is clear, there's nothing to discuss.

 

So sorry, not sorry that I'm so hostile towards tournament players, but I think they are the ones who ruin good things about our hobby. I guess that's the price of playing a popular game/hobby. 

[Vel'Cona]

Let's all be awesome to each other.  I understand we each approach the game in our own way, but this thread isn't about how we feel about "player types" etc.  That being said, there's some good conversation about the FAQ in here so keep the constructive discussion/feedback going.  Remember, GW is about player experience more than ever so reaching out to them for clarification is a great solution when stuff like this comes up.

[Prot]

=][= Well this managed to go sideways pretty fast.

 

From this point forward the Keyword discussion and rules will need to be discussed in the proper forum: Official rules

 

I don't know how many times we see competitive vs. non-competitive debates get overly heated. But it has to end here. There is very low tolerance for referring to player groups in derogatory manners here. Warnings will be issued if the conversation can't be kept civil.

 

Please stay on the general topic of opportunities (missed or otherwise) in the codex. I understand the need to vent when things don't go as you think they should. Please be respectful. =][=

 

Thank you.

[Chris521]

So in one of the fastest changes I've ever seen GW make, they've now taken the litanies away from the Chaplain Dread for DA,SW,BA, and DW.  Good to know where their priorities are. "Should we let them keep the normal litanies until we come up with specific rules for these armies?" "Naw they get nothing"

[Azaiel]

So in one of the fastest changes I've ever seen GW make, they've now taken the litanies away from the Chaplain Dread for DA,SW,BA, and DW.  Good to know where their priorities are. "Should we let them keep the normal litanies until we come up with specific rules for these armies?" "Naw they get nothing"

Haha that was quick!

[GrinNfool]

Another change I noticed in the FAQ Aggressor in the firestorm rule is no longer bolded, so now "That guy" can't argue non sense.  Though the reiver one still is... but I maintain it to be nonsense to even try to argue against it by using the very rule with clear and obvious intent to allow it.  Not that anyone actually puts reivers in a kill team lol.

Edited September 3, 2019 by GrinNfool

[Qui-Gon]

They've updated the document and removed the keyword formatting. Woo!
I am supremely happy about this.

Not upset at all at the loss of chaplain dread litanies.

[Black Knight]

Not that anyone actually puts reivers in a kill team lol.

 

I just painted 5 that I totally intend to use... or maybe just look at......

Edited September 4, 2019 by Black_Knight

[Lemondish]

So in one of the fastest changes I've ever seen GW make, they've now taken the litanies away from the Chaplain Dread for DA,SW,BA, and DW.  Good to know where their priorities are. "Should we let them keep the normal litanies until we come up with specific rules for these armies?" "Naw they get nothing"

 

"Should we force them to purchase the codex despite only one part of one Index model being newly relevant to them?" 

 

"Naw, we have future plans for their Chaplains anyway"

 

I put a spin on your spin and now we're all happy!

Edited September 4, 2019 by Lemondish

[Mr4Minutes]

My fingers are crossed for unique litanies and psychic powers. Just hope they aren’t all Xeno specific so we can use them often.

[Trollbeard]

I’ve always disliked DW just having space marine powers. You’d think Xenos hunting librarians would have some special powers to aid in exterminating different Xenos.

 

It would be a good way to add some defensive options to DW also.

[Lemondish]

My fingers are crossed for unique litanies and psychic powers. Just hope they aren’t all Xeno specific so we can use them often.

 

 

I’ve always disliked DW just having space marine powers. You’d think Xenos hunting librarians would have some special powers to aid in exterminating different Xenos.

 

It would be a good way to add some defensive options to DW also.

 

I've always wanted the DW librarians to use versions of Xenos powers themselves. One of my favourite DW wargear items is the Xenophase blade. The idea of using Xenos technology against them is great and I would really like to see that concept expanded - a good way to do so would be with psychic powers, no?

[Black Knight]

(War of the Beast very small spoilers)

Well the original teleport strike that DW used was Ork tech(The war of the Beast), I am not sure if they still use that tech or they converted to imperial tech.

 

So why not powers too.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Black_Knight

[Duke Danse Macabre]

(War of the Beast very small spoilers)

Well the original teleport strike that DW used was Ork tech(The war of the Beast), I am not sure if they still use that tech or they converted to imperial tech.

 

So why not powers too.

they must of been channeling gork and mork to get ork tech to work. lol

 

its been a bit of a slap in the face with dw of late having the least options and rules whilst we are meant to be the best supplied being special forces of sorts but we just need to focus on what works until we start getting these options.