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Veteran Intercessors

Space Marines Buff units Intercessors

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32 replies to this topic

#1
Lord Raven 19

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In the new SM codex, there is a stratagem called veteran Intercessors. It does the same as the Vigilus stratagem of the same name except for it does not give the veteran keyword and costs 2cp for a 6+ model squad and 1 otherwise.

If this stacks with the Vigilus strat, it could be hilarious to see six attacks on a PF Intercessor sergeant on the charge (shock assault added). There are also copies of the bolt rifle buff stratagems for veteran Intercessors as well except any Intercessor unit can use them and they cost more (2CP for boltstorm and rapid fire, 3 for target sighted). I expect this to be errata'd into oblivion but if not our Intercessors are going to cost possibly 3cp (+1 for specialist detachment) per full size squad for maximum efficiency.

Lord Raven19

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#2
Brother Adelard

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I would have thought it pretty clear that a new stratagem, with the same name as an existing one, is designed to replace it entirely.

The situation is less clear with old strats that have not been replaced. Like Abhor the Witch. I'm leaning towards them sadly being dead, but it would be nice to know for sure. (And I will continue to use Abhor until something says otherwise.)

The Vigilus strats are in an interesting place. I'm confident the BT and IF ones for example are still valid, but UM, less so.
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#3
Lord Raven 19

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It seems to be to me that the relic from that detatchment has also made it's way into the codex too. The vigilus detatchment just now seems to discount the strats (possibly allow use twice a phase?), add liberators (nice but not quite on a level with the others), and give the grey shield warlord traits (a fun thing with the new CT buffs, even though the Sallies CT changed name)

Lord Raven19

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#4
RayJ

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You cannot use 2 stratagems with the same name. It's in FAQ I believe, but I think you are welcome to use either the Vigilus or Codex variant.

#5
Reinhard

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What is the significance of the intercessors having lost the veteran keyword? do they still gain their attack and such?



#6
Lord Raven 19

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What is the significance of the intercessors having lost the veteran keyword? do they still gain their attack and such?

Yes, however, the veteran Intercessor stratagems are printed in the codex at a higher cost for all 'Intercessor squad' units to use


Lord Raven19

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#7
SkimaskMohawk

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So heres the thing. Or two.

 

You don't have to pay for indomitus cursaders, so if you were only making one big squad veterans you pay the same. If you're using it on two 5 mans or one 5 man, you pay less over all.

 

Same thing for the rapid fire and auto-hit. You don't need to pay for indomitus or veterans; you can use them on any appropriate unit. Using one on a unit of normal intercessors saves you 1 cp from what it used to.

 

The only time its higher is if you make a 10 man squad veterans and then also use the strats on them



#8
Lord Raven 19

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I would generally run multiple squads and probably buff as many as possible to fire maximum dakka. For me,it means more buffs.


Lord Raven19

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#9
SkimaskMohawk

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How...You can't use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

#10
Dracos

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How...You can't use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

 

I don't have the book but usually if its a stratagem used before the battle begins it has multiple uses.


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#11
SkimaskMohawk

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Hes talking about the shooting stratagems though. Ones you use in the shooting phase that only last for that phase. You're totally free to make as many vet intercessors as you have cp
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#12
mertbl

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In my opinion anything in the first codex is gone. I'm sure abhor the witch will be back in the imperial fist supplement, just like flamecraft, strike from the shadows etc.

Vigilus is still valid but strats that have the same name are considered to be the same thing no matter the source, so no doubling up the veteran strat.


I would have thought it pretty clear that a new stratagem, with the same name as an existing one, is designed to replace it entirely.

The situation is less clear with old strats that have not been replaced. Like Abhor the Witch. I'm leaning towards them sadly being dead, but it would be nice to know for sure. (And I will continue to use Abhor until something says otherwise.)

The Vigilus strats are in an interesting place. I'm confident the BT and IF ones for example are still valid, but UM, less so.



#13
chapter master 454

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Hmm. Awkward spot ain't it.

 

Because by all accounts, only one worth is rapid fire because...WHO IN GW THINKS TARGET SIGHTED IS WORTH 3CP?

 

Seriously...which marine player in the studio managed to one turn hitter quitter the head honchos newly painted abbadon turn 1 with it? Who was it?

 

As it stands, we are currently reeling in the new codex. Lots of fun stuff, personally I am going through some ideas for bringing in gravturions. Want to test out the stratagem. However that not withstanding the fact the veteran intercessors just got nerfed so hard (along with their stratagems) that they were questioning if they just became grey knights (oof).

 

The vigilus stuff literally got gutted, dried on a rack then put out back with a storm bolter. All of it was CP hiked with target sighted going to 3 and the others going to 2 each with not even a mention of the idea that maybe the veteran intercessors could get a discount on those abilities (maybe even each squad getting a free use of the respective stratagem, once per battle).

 

As it stands, dead. However if they change this so the formation actually has merit, that would be nice. Then again, grey shield now would be KINDA nuts...I mean...that's a lot of nuts to hold for a trait (Casually just be iron hands and salamanders for a turn).


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#14
Drudge Dreadnought

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If I may ask perhaps an obvious question, but is +1A and +1LD even worth the 1CP cost? Intercessors aren't terrible at melee, but in general they are going to accomplish more shooting. Their big attraction right now is the 30" range. They aren't exactly going to be getting into your opponents back line. Having melee is decent if you're expecting to receive a charge of course. But it seems that they may be better off spending that CP on other costs, such as the rapid fire strat.



#15
SkimaskMohawk

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How did veteran intercessors get nerfed "so hard that they just became grey knights" ? If you're doing msu they're cheaper by 1 cp no matter how many you're running. If you're doing multiple large units, yea, they cost more after the first unit.

And they probably made target sighted 3cp after 10 killed 3 characters in one turn. Since split fire is a thing. But even then, it still cost the same for one use as it did from vigilus...

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 20 August 2019 - 02:19 AM.


#16
chapter master 454

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If I may ask perhaps an obvious question, but is +1A and +1LD even worth the 1CP cost? Intercessors aren't terrible at melee, but in general they are going to accomplish more shooting. Their big attraction right now is the 30" range. They aren't exactly going to be getting into your opponents back line. Having melee is decent if you're expecting to receive a charge of course. But it seems that they may be better off spending that CP on other costs, such as the rapid fire strat.

 

I generally ran a list with 3 squads of veteran intercessors whose plan went along the lines of being the front then marching up the board. Ofcourse it wasn't always that simple, however when it generally got to turn 3 or onwards when there was closer quarters on objectives with remaining squads, even 3-4 veteran intercessors would clean up shop against pretty much anything else in those stages very nicely and even against higher power stuff as well (you aren't going to get charged by intercessors and not have some concerns when the basic trooper is swinging 3 times).

 

Rapid Fire also is really good but...is it really needed? That rate of fire is achievable by them fat boys over yonder -6-man squad of centurions with hurricanes- "yo...so we yellow today or that sweet dark blue?"

 

Really, the Vigilus stuff was gutted. Really the only thing I am hung up on regarding it is just the lack of interaction with the stratagems. Again, if Veteran Intercessors came with a free use of the respective stratagem then that would be cool. The benefit there is you are paying points and you could likely never use ether component (the +1 attack OR the stratagem) and thus now you went down 2 CP for no reason. Its really my only gripe.

 

Then again we did get alot in return. Thunder Hammers on them, we can master craft centurion sergeant hurricane boltguns (oh that makes me giggle every time) and tacticals are now 12 points, suppose you can't win them all.


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#17
Mandragola

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It’s weird how there’s no info on whether vigilus is still legal. Personally I think it’s arguably a supplement to a defunct Codex, so is probably gone. The same is probably true of the Crimson Fist WD stuff I’ve been using, though presumably I’ll get that back before too long.

If taking 10-man squads then the detachment is definitely worth it. The LD helps with big units. And actually I’m not sure the new strats are worth it on 5-man units anyway.

That said, I found the old detachment to be something of a CP sink. I remember using it in a game against plaguebearers. The 5CPs I spent on the detachment, upgrading two units to vets and rapid firing twice killed maybe 8 plaguebearers in total. That might have been enough to make the difference but I don’t think it affected the game much.

I won because (for once) my vindicare shot a character dead in the mission where you get a vp a turn for each for each character who’s alive. So now I’m filling up my lists with eliminators and I might even do target sighted from time to time

Edited by Mandragola, 20 August 2019 - 06:20 AM.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#18
MegaVolt87

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I expect the Vigilus books to get errata to match the new SM codex.
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#19
Lemondish

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All of it was CP hiked with target sighted going to 3 and the others going to 2 each with not even a mention of the idea that maybe the veteran intercessors could get a discount on those abilities (maybe even each squad getting a free use of the respective stratagem, once per battle).


I don't understand this.

It cost 2 CP to create one veteran Intercessor squad capable of using the weapon strats, which were 1 CP each. That means it cost 3 CP to use them and it turns out you don't really need +1A and +1LD with ranged weapons.

Now it's 1CP less because you don't have to commit 2CP to unlocking the option in the first place.

All this considered, it actually got cheaper with more player control, you don't need the Vigilus Book, and you don't need the Vigilus detachment. Win win win in my book.
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#20
Lemondish

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I generally ran a list with 3 squads of veteran intercessors whose plan went along the lines of being the front then marching up the board. Ofcourse it wasn't always that simple, however when it generally got to turn 3 or onwards when there was closer quarters on objectives with remaining squads, even 3-4 veteran intercessors would clean up shop against pretty much anything else in those stages very nicely and even against higher power stuff as well (you aren't going to get charged by intercessors and not have some concerns when the basic trooper is swinging 3 times).


So you spent 4 CP on 30 Intercessors just to get the +1 attack on every squad that we received for free with shock assault?

I think for your edge case, and isolated only to that single Veteran Intercessor strat without consideration for any other components (shock assault, doctrines, and relic Sgt weapons), then yes - your particular use got more expensive. Another way to look at it is that you just saved CP by no longer needing to pay for an extra attack.

However, I really don't think anybody else was bringing Veteran Intercessors just for +1 Attack.

#21
Mandragola

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All of it was CP hiked with target sighted going to 3 and the others going to 2 each with not even a mention of the idea that maybe the veteran intercessors could get a discount on those abilities (maybe even each squad getting a free use of the respective stratagem, once per battle).

I don't understand this.

It cost 2 CP to create one veteran Intercessor squad capable of using the weapon strats, which were 1 CP each. That means it cost 3 CP to use them and it turns out you don't really need +1A and +1LD with ranged weapons.

Now it's 1CP less because you don't have to commit 2CP to unlocking the option in the first place.

All this considered, it actually got cheaper with more player control, you don't need the Vigilus Book, and you don't need the Vigilus detachment. Win win win in my book.
So if you use rapid fire once you save 1cp - but don’t get veteran intercessors. The moment you want to use the strat a second time you only break even. The old version was very clearly better.

And it’s one thing not to need the vigilus book, but I’ve got it already. I bought it only a few months ago and now it’s useless... apparently. In fact it’s not clear whether it’s legal or not.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#22
SkimaskMohawk

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So you have to use it 3 times not to spend more than previously. Thats not "clearly better" ; you also need to be in combat for 2 or more rounds of combat to get benefit out of old veteran intercessors compared to new normal ones. If you're in a protracted combat, then you're not shooting, meaning you're not able to use the strats...

And if you want to talk about invalidation, at least you had since release in...January to use the rules? My blood ravens had less than a month before the majority were invalidated. At least I can comfort myself with the rampant abuse possible with scions and first founding traits.

#23
Lemondish

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All of it was CP hiked with target sighted going to 3 and the others going to 2 each with not even a mention of the idea that maybe the veteran intercessors could get a discount on those abilities (maybe even each squad getting a free use of the respective stratagem, once per battle).

I don't understand this.

It cost 2 CP to create one veteran Intercessor squad capable of using the weapon strats, which were 1 CP each. That means it cost 3 CP to use them and it turns out you don't really need +1A and +1LD with ranged weapons.

Now it's 1CP less because you don't have to commit 2CP to unlocking the option in the first place.

All this considered, it actually got cheaper with more player control, you don't need the Vigilus Book, and you don't need the Vigilus detachment. Win win win in my book.
So if you use rapid fire once you save 1cp - but don’t get veteran intercessors. The moment you want to use the strat a second time you only break even. The old version was very clearly better.

And it’s one thing not to need the vigilus book, but I’ve got it already. I bought it only a few months ago and now it’s useless... apparently. In fact it’s not clear whether it’s legal or not.

I disagree. In my experience this is 100 times better.

You want to know what happened in each match I played when I bought a Veteran Intercessor squad?

"Which one is the Vet squad that can do that nasty rapid fire Stratagem?"

They didn't really last long and weren't usually able to make full use of it except when going first. A 3 CP overhead and an easily telegraphed strategy was all Vigilus provided. After all, if you're going to send that many CP with an army that lacks consistent CP generation outside Ultramarines, then you should really try and make the best of it.

Now I get +1 attack for free and don't need to spend CP for it. I also get to decide if I want to use the rapid fire Stratagem instead of having this sunk cost pushing it up the chain. All achieved with 100% less overhead.

I find these changes to be a significant improvement over Vigilus. I finally have choice during a game rather than having to spend CP at the list building phase.

#24
sfPanzer

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However, I really don't think anybody else was bringing Veteran Intercessors just for +1 Attack.

 

 

Well, I would have if we had access to it. And to have a unit painted as veterans on the board. :P


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#25
Mandragola

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It’s certainly an advantage to be able to do it in game with no prep. I didn’t find that a huge issue though as I would upgrade units to vets when it looked worthwhile - eg against plaguebearers, and not otherwise. Against hordes both the rapid fire strat and the extra attack were useful. The rest of the time neither were.

To be honest though I don’t think the strata are likely to be worth it much of the time now. 2-3cps is a lot. Bolt rifles don’t actually kill very much stuff other than pretty soft troops, against whom the extra shots aren’t really needed. The auto hit strat is almost useless for my Crimson Fists. I can see a possible case for target sighted, but I’m not sure it justifies bringing stalkers.

Anyway this is a thread about veteran intercessors. Before, I could make my units of 10 and 8 into vets for 3cps and they could rapid fire for 1. Now it costs 4 and then 2. But they’ve got +1 attack on the charge anyway and rapid fire wasn’t awesome, so maybe I’ll just keep my cps for other stuff.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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