Grav-Guns: Worth it with the New Codex?

[Rommel44]

Pretty straightforward and simple question mates. With the changes to the Codex and the new units and rules, are Grav-Guns worth taking atm? Or would SM players be better off utilizing the standard Plasma or Melta gun options?

[Emicus]

Gravgun? No

Gravcannon with amp? Yes

[Captain Idaho]

I'd prefer Plasma due to the overcharge ability but the Grav Cannon is great.

 

Even if just added to a Tactical squad, along with a plasma and combi plasma, you'll have 8 AP-3 shots which actually makes the unit pretty dangerous. You can add Combat Doctrines into your factoring of capacity also.

 

Ultramarines get to use Sons of Guilliman to re-roll misses too so they become much more dangerous jumping out of a transport.

[Kallas]

Gravgun? No

Gravcannon with amp? Yes

End of thread

[Ishagu]

Grav Guns are cheaper than Plasmas now.

[MajorNese]

Since I've used it extensively in the Issobomb of old - grav was only reliable and effective when targeting MEQ or primaris. For anything with toughness 6 or higher, the wound roll becomes rather unpredictable.

 

The new stratagem compensates the bad wound roll quite a bit (0.55 to-wound chance instead of 0.33 per roll) and gives free reroll for the damage, which should be worth it in a large unit, especially considering the strat is just 1CP.

 

Without the strat, it is overshadowed by the cheap truckloads of heavy bolter shots that start off at AP-2 with doctrines.

[Rommel44]

Grav Guns are cheaper than Plasmas now.

Hence why I was asking

[Toxichobbit]

It's cheaper by 1 point. Still not really worth it. Both benefit from the same doctrine, both are AP-3 but Str7 is quite a big breakpoint (3s to wound T5 & 6 and more importantly, 4s to wound T7) where as grav gets a situational D3 damage. And then plasma has the versatility of supercharge, which puts it way above grav. Even without the Str boost, I'd rather have a reliable 2 damage than D3. There's plenty of ways to mitigate the odd 1 to hit if needed.

 

Even worse is grav-pistols, which are 3 points more expensive than a plasma pistol.

 

There's only one good reason to take grav-guns or grav-pistols, which is that you like the model.

[Kallas]

Ah yeah, I forgot that. But yeah, 10pt Gravgun vs 11pt Plasma Gun is no contest: Plasma wins that decision 101% of the time.

[Medjugorje]

Grav Guns are cheaper than Plasmas now.

But Plasma is still better - even for this price

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Devil's Advocate: gravis armored models are now three wounds. Plasma wounds easier, but it's no longer a one-shot kill whereas gravis has a 33% chance of such.

 

Plus, grav doesn't kill its wielder.

[Medjugorje]

Devil's Advocate: gravis armored models are now three wounds. Plasma wounds easier, but it's no longer a one-shot kill whereas gravis has a 33% chance of such.

 

Plus, grav doesn't kill its wielder.

then we need mathhammer.. 

 

Plasma: 2/3 * 2/3 *2/3 = 0,3 *2dmg = 0,6 dmg (my school time is long time ago... can someone calculate how many plasmashots are needed to kill a gravis dude?)

 

2/3*1/2*2/3=0,22 (average 0,44 damage but 1/3 chance to make a one shot kill) - so i would say they are just better to kill lower thoughness and 3W models or models with 2W and FnP. 

 

With buffs this could be diffferent. But I think there is no way to use them in competitve tournament lists. 

[Ishagu]

Grav Guns aren't overly impressive but the cannons are a big deal. Both Centurions and Devs now have a place on the table.

 

6 Grav Centurions would bring down basically anything.

 

Grav Guns are assault 2, are they not? That's something to consider - and they don't overheat.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Ishagu

[Kallas]

 

Devil's Advocate: gravis armored models are now three wounds. Plasma wounds easier, but it's no longer a one-shot kill whereas gravis has a 33% chance of such.

 

Plus, grav doesn't kill its wielder.

then we need mathhammer.. 

 

Plasma: 2/3 * 2/3 *2/3 = 0,3 *2dmg = 0,6 dmg (my school time is long time ago... can someone calculate how many plasmashots are needed to kill a gravis dude?)

 

2/3*1/2*2/3=0,22 (average 0,44 damage but 1/3 chance to make a one shot kill) - so i would say they are just better to kill lower thoughness and 3W models or models with 2W and FnP. 

 

With buffs this could be diffferent. But I think there is no way to use them in competitve tournament lists. 

 

Your math is slightly off: at AP-3, the save chance (well, fail chance) is 5/6 not 2/3. So they'd be:

Plasma: 2/3 *2/3 *5/6 = 0.74

Grav: 2/3 *1/2 *5/6 = 0.278 /0.556 /0.834

 

Shots to kill Gravis:

Regular: 8.27

Overcharge: 5.52

Grav (3): 3.64

Grav (2; or 1 then 2+): 7.28

 

I believe that that math is correct, though if someone knows a better calculation, help us out!

Grav Guns aren't overly impressive but the cannons are a big deal. Both Centurions and Devs now have a place on the table.

 

[...]

 

Grav Guns are assault 2, are they not? That's something to consider - and they don't overheat.

 

Grav Cannons are great.

 

Grav Guns are 18" Rapid Fire 1. Yet another reason why they're crap. That shorter range is something that is a major factor in being less effective.

[Toxichobbit]

I forgot about the 18" range. Makes them even worse, it's doubly painful for rapid fire as it means you need to be within 9" to get 2 shots, compared to plasma's 12". I agree on grav-cannons though. The combination of dropping by almost a third in price and the Grav Amplificaiton stratagem makes them much better. I do wish Grav Amplification was connected to the grav-amp rather than the cannon and amp. It'd open up design space for other grav weapons to get grav-amps and make use of the Stratagem, plus it'd give the grav-amp a purpose (other than making the weapon name longer).

 

Devil's Advocate: gravis armored models are now three wounds. Plasma wounds easier, but it's no longer a one-shot kill whereas gravis has a 33% chance of such.

Plus, grav doesn't kill its wielder.

 

Neither does plasma unless you supercharge. Like I said before, plasma is so versatile and supercharge just adds to the versatility, albeit at a risk. Grav is the opposite, being restrictive/situational instead of versatile.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Toxichobbit

[Rommel44]

^ Been looking at it some more and the way I see it, Plasma Guns still are the more effective option when it comes to Special Weapons. But the Grav-Cannon w/Grav-Amps is a great option when it comes to Grav Weaponry.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Plasma: Good against heavy infantry and heavy armor, but you better bring re-rolls

Grav: Good against heavy infantry and okay against light armor, but you don't need to bring re-rolls.

 

The Grav vs Plasma argument is pretty much always going to come down to if the unit is going to have re-rolls to hit or not.

The bigger question is Grav vs other options on units that can't take plasma, like Centurion Devs.

[Toxichobbit]

Centurion Devs is beyond the scope of this thread. It should really be a second topic.

 

I run plasma without re-rolls all the time*. It's not that big of an issue. Sure, I do sometimes have a Marine get cooked, but it's not that often. Plasma does, after all, have two firing modes and the standard is perfectly safe and useful in many situations. And if the worst comes to pass, I'll drop a Command Re-Roll to try and keep the plasma guy alive.

 

* I'm talking about plasma guns in squads, not squads of plasma weapons like Inceptors or Hellblasters. Those almost always have a dedicated re-roll source.