Can you still use 1CP 10man vet intercessors from Vigilus

[Tamiel]

In Vigilus ablaze, the formation had 1CP vet intercessors for 10man squads. Can you still use that?
As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules anywhere saying you can't, and nothing seems to even be implying it. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can, but you still have to take an indomitus crusader detachment, making you spend....the same amount of command points

[MegaVolt87]

Don't get attached, it has a lot of crossover with what's in the new dex. Its going to be FAQ'd probably sooner rather than later to come into line with the new dex. 

[Tamiel]

You can, but you still have to take an indomitus crusader detachment, making you spend....the same amount of command points

Not if you're taking more than one 10man vet squad. You also get access to a pretty good warlord trait and the liberators stratagem.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tamiel

[SkimaskMohawk]

But...what's the point? You throwing ten man squads into combat constantly and expecting them to grind it out over multiple rounds? Why not take reivers

 

Whirlwind of rage and charging does the same as old vets with indomitus crusaders. 3 less cp for one it's benefit.

[Lemondish]

But...what's the point? You throwing ten man squads into combat constantly and expecting them to grind it out over multiple rounds? Why not take reivers

 

Whirlwind of rage and charging does the same as old vets with indomitus crusaders. 3 less cp for one it's benefit.

Some people seem to be really attached to +1A that they feel it is necessary to acquire it again at all costs, I guess.

 

Even though we already got it with shock assault.

[MegaVolt87]

But...what's the point? You throwing ten man squads into combat constantly and expecting them to grind it out over multiple rounds? Why not take reivers

 

Whirlwind of rage and charging does the same as old vets with indomitus crusaders. 3 less cp for one it's benefit.

 

Yeah but whirly with vets is still good if you burn up the CP's. On an auto bolter intercessors who are advancing + shooting anyway with rapid assault is why I assume it has gone up to 2 CP in the dex. Right now the detachment with the duplicate stratagem is just too good for 1 CP per 10 man unit, which is why it will be FAQ'd sooner rather than later, so not a good idea to be too attached to the detachment. 

[Lemondish]

 

 

But...what's the point? You throwing ten man squads into combat constantly and expecting them to grind it out over multiple rounds? Why not take reivers

 

Whirlwind of rage and charging does the same as old vets with indomitus crusaders. 3 less cp for one it's benefit.

Yeah but whirly with vets is still good if you burn up the CP's. On an auto bolter intercessors who are advancing + shooting anyway with rapid assault is why I assume it has gone up to 2 CP in the dex. Right now the detachment with the duplicate stratagem is just too good for 1 CP per 10 man unit, which is why it will be FAQ'd sooner rather than later, so not a good idea to be too attached to the detachment.

It's actually 3CP.

 

1 for the detachment and 1 to make that unit a veteran squad. Then 1 to do the Stratagem.

 

But as far as we know, new Stratagems with the same name replace old ones.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Lemondish

[Tamiel]

The point is that the old stratagem (which is tied to the formation, so I don't see why it would be replaced by the codex one) was 1CP. With both the old stratagem and the vet upgrade for 10men being 1CP, it's cheaper over the long run to have a lot of vet squads and pick and choose which one gets to use the stratagem. When you bring a single vet squad, people focus it. Now, all of a sudden, instead of shooting four shots a guy with 10 guys, you're doing it with 6 guys. That's a HUGE loss in damage output. But when you bring multiple 10man vet squads, not only do their powerfist sergeants become beasts (along with the rest of the boys tearing apart anything not wearing power armour), you also have multiple 10man squads that your opponent has to split his shots across. If he leaves one of them at full strength, I win. If he gets all of them equally hurt, I win, because I won't get to use the stratagem at full strength, but I have now forced my opponent into splitting his firepower instead of focusing and taking out a single squad.

And with the relic banner that makes my guys fearless, I don't have to worry about leaderships.

It's not a playstyle for everyone, and I know someone's already writing a reply saying "Well, akshully, your strategy is bad in this particular instance and..." but I don't really care. I do this, it works for me, and I just made this thread to see what people thought about whether or not you could still do it. Seems like the consensus it that you still can until GW decides to FAQ is (if they decide to FAQ it).

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tamiel

[Ishagu]

If the strats have the same name you should be using the new ones.

[MegaVolt87]

If the strats have the same name you should be using the new ones.

We should, but people won't until it gets a FAQ which it will. It's like tax law, govt expects people to follow it to a T, but will exploit the loop hole until an ammendment is made via parliament etc. Enjoy/ exploit while you can, don't get mad when it will change eventually!

[Ishagu]

I'll have a look at the supplement when I'm home later. I'll see how it's worded in regards to what it's an expansion to.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Technically, (puts uber pedantic thick glasses on) one of the stratagems shared between Vigilus and the codex is spelt differently as it has a space in one book, and is one word in the other!

 

Surely then we can use both?!

 

(Boltstorm v Bolt Storm? Or something like that, I don't have the books with me, and no, I'm not being serious.)

[Emicus]

I hope vigilus veterans and detachment persist.

Yes they make the same stat boost, but in different ways.

 

1cp5 2cp10 codex is great for 5man units or if you only want 1 vet unit.

 

1cp5-10 is great if you want 3 or more large units.

 

Also greyshield ;)

 

I used 3x10 vets before for 4cp total cost, now that is 6cp and I also lose greyshield. Hardly a great improvement!

 

"But you get 1 attack now anyway" well yeah so I get no difference.. Or as veterans 4 attacks on basic guys! 5 with a flag!

[Lemondish]

 

If the strats have the same name you should be using the new ones.

We should, but people won't until it gets a FAQ which it will. It's like tax law, govt expects people to follow it to a T, but will exploit the loop hole until an ammendment is made via parliament etc. Enjoy/ exploit while you can, don't get mad when it will change eventually!

I'm not convinced there's an exploit here.

 

It's exceptionally expensive for a modest at best gain in a very specific army configuration that is itself suboptimal.

 

They'll fix it, but I do not think it will be dominating anything so even if they tarry it won't really matter.

[Mandragola]

Well sure it’s not really an exploit. I don’t really think any of these stratagems are worth it, most of the time. If you’re up against a lot of models, say in an ork or nurgle army, then it may be worth taking some veteran intercessors. The rapid fire stratagem might also be worth it. There are some scenarios where Target Sighted could be good, but they’re pretty rare.

 

It’s just kind of weird we haven’t got any info on the Vigilus stuff and also things like the Crimson Fist and Blood Raven WD articles. It feels like I’ve got about 80% of my rules but not all of them. Does this mean that marines don’t have any specialist detachments any more?

 

I’m going to the London GT in a few weeks. If I’m bringing my Crimson Fists I should be painting a ton of new stuff. But what new stuff will work best with my mini-dex rules, if I even get some? Will the book even be out by then? It’s pretty frustrating. I think I’ll probably just bring my knights instead.