Courage and Honor: Scions of Guilliman?

[General Strike]

Okay, so I want to get everyone's input on this. The wording is weird, so I don't know if I HAVE to use Inheritors of the Primarch for my Successor to gain Scions of Guilliman. It says "otherwise choose a founding chapter that best fits your Chapter's character.

 

Courage And Honor https://imgur.com/gallery/AkN4QUh

Edited August 21, 2019 by General Strike

[Kallas]

• If you're Ultramarines, you get everything in the core Codex and everything in the Supplement

If you're a UM Successor with Inheritors, you get everything in the core Codex and everything in the Supplement, with the exception of the UM-specific Relics (Relics of Macragge) of which you can 'upgrade' one of your other Relics to using the Honoured by Macragge stratagem

If you're a UM Successor with Successor Traits other than Inheritors, you get everything in the core Codex and everything in the Supplement, with the exception of the UM-specific Relics (Relics of Macragge) of which you can 'upgrade' one of your other Relics to using the Honoured by Macragge stratagem

[General Strike]

That's what I read it as too, it's just weird that we don't have a clear keyword for it. Like <successors ultramarines> or something. Edited August 21, 2019 by General Strike

[Lemondish]

That's what I read it as too, it's just weird that we don't have a clear keyword for it. Like <successors ultramarines> or something.

Except there is.

 

There's an entire page devoted to telling you to replace Ultramarine with your successor <CHAPTER> keyword where relevant.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Lemondish

[Malakithe]

What about the chapter tactics, special rules, and characters? If I want to use the Ultras rulesets but want to make my own chapter what would I pick? From my point of view using Inheritors is exactly the same as just declaring them as a successor. Inheritors says pick a chapter tactic to use but saying my homebrew is a successor and to pick a chapter tactic is the same...so is the same? Its confusing...

[Brother Tholath]

From what I understand:

 

If you pick the Inheritors trait, you have to be a successor of that chapter. So you couldn't pick the Sallies one, but be an Ultramarines successor.

 

If you pick 2 traits of your own, this allows you to choose who your chapter is a successor of. So pick Stealthy and Extra Range (can't remember the name) and choose to be Ultramarines.

 

Whichever way you do it, you get to use the supplements of your chosen parent chapter

[Toxichobbit]

First you choose (or research) your Successor Chapter's parent Chapter. Then you pick your Chapter Tactics. If you pick Inheritors of the Primarch and you're an Ultramarines Successor you use the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic. Likewise if you were an Iron Hands Successor you'd use the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic, an Imperial Fists Successor you'd use the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic etc. If you don't pick Inheritors of the Primarch, you use whatever combination of two Successor Chapter Tactics you want to use no matter who your parent Chapter is..

 

Regardless of whether you use Inheritors of the Primarch or two other Successor Chapter Tactics, if you're an Ultramarines Successor you get access to the Scions of Guilliman rule, Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Special Issue Wargear, Indomitus Discipline and Tactical Objectives from Codex Supplement Ultramarines.

[Malakithe]

Wait...as im understanding that you're saying if I wanted to be and Ultra successor I could still pick 2 traits from that list on top of Scions of Guilliman, and all the Ultra stuff? Minus special units of course. Why wouldnt everyone do that then?

[crazyterran]

You don’t get the UM chapter tactic as well as two successor tactics, and you get no access to UM characters as a successor.

[Lemondish]

What about the chapter tactics, special rules, and characters? If I want to use the Ultras rulesets but want to make my own chapter what would I pick? From my point of view using Inheritors is exactly the same as just declaring them as a successor. Inheritors says pick a chapter tactic to use but saying my homebrew is a successor and to pick a chapter tactic is the same...so is the same? Its confusing...

 

If you want to use the Ultras ruleset, you have one of three options here...

1. You play Ultramarines
2. You play a known Ultramarine successor established in the game's lore
3. You play a homebrew Chapter that you have decided is an Ultramarine successor

You cannot select Inheritors of the Primarch and choose the Raven Guard tactic Shadow Masters but stay as an Ultramarine successor - doing this makes you a Raven Guard successor. Likewise, you cannot select Codex Discipline and choose to be a White Scars successor. Selecting a chapter tactic with Inheritors of the Primarch makes you a successor of the chapter you've inherited the tactic from. 

 

Therefore...

 

If you select 1. above, you are Ultramarines. You get Ultramarine special characters, you use the chapter tactic Codex Discipline, you get access to the Ultramarine relic list, special issue wargear list, tactical objectives list, warlord traits, psychic discipline, and the Scions of Guilliman special rule all from the Supplement. 

 

If you select 2. or 3., you are an Ultramarine successor. You get to decide if you want to inherit Codex Discipline or make your own tactic from combining any of the two in the successor list. You also get access to the special issue wargear list, tactical objectives list, warlord traits, psychic discipline, and the Scions of Guilliman special rule all from the Supplement. You do not get free access to the Ultramarine relic list but can pay 1 CP to select from this list. You do not get the Ultramarine special characters, but your particular chapter may have received a special Forge World character at some point. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lemondish

[Toxichobbit]

Wait...as im understanding that you're saying if I wanted to be and Ultra successor I could still pick 2 traits from that list on top of Scions of Guilliman, and all the Ultra stuff? Minus special units of course.

 

Yes, you're understanding it right. You can pick two Successor Chapter Tactics and still have access to Scions of Guilliman, the Ultramarines Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Special Issue Wargear and Tactical Objectives. You also have very limited access to the Ultramarines Relics (one per game for 1CP, using the Honoured By Macragge Stratagem).

 

Why wouldnt everyone do that then?

 

It isn't an option if you are playing Ultramarines. You can't play Ultramarines then pick and choose your Chapter Tactics, that's only an option for Successors. So anyone who is playing Ultramarines won't even be considering it. Plus loosing out on all the Ultramarine unique units just for the option to pick your Chapter Tactics is a big deal. That's 12 unique Datasheets you'd loose.

 

For anyone playing an Ultramarines Successor it's just a choice of do you want your own Chapter Tactics, or the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic. Bare in mind that all of the First Founding Chapters, including Ultramarines, have at least two effects in their Chapter Tactic, and one of those effects is always unique - so it's not on the Sucessor Chapter Tactic list. For Ultramarines Successors, being able to fall back and still shoot is unique to Ultramarines and their Inheritors of the Primarch. Regardless, whether you go for two Successor Chapter Tactics or Inheritors, you're still getting two effects and access to the same Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Special Issue Wargear etc, so neither choice is necessarily better than the other.

 

If you're asking as to why anyone would pick another Chapter to be a Successor of - well first if you're playing a Chapter that is a known Successor you have to use the parent Chapter. You can't play, for example, Raptors using Iron Hands rules, or Brazen Claws using Salamanders rules. Secondly, all Successor Chapters will eventually work this way, once the parent Chapter gets a supplement. White Scars already work like this, with White Scars Successors getting to pick their Successor Tactic from the list (including Inheritors of the Primarch which gives them the White Scars Chapter Tactic) while also getting access to the White Scars Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Special Issue Wargear, Tactical Objectives, one Relic and Devastating Charge (White Scars version of Scions of Guilliman). Once all the Supplements are out then every Successor Chapter (from Codex Space Marines, so not Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc) will be built this way. And fingers crossed they'll expand the system to cover the other Marine Codexs as well as other factions.

[Captain Idaho]

Just to throw it out there, the Strategum that allows you to fall back, shoot without penalty and charge (forget the name as I'm working without access to me books) costs 2 CPs instead of 1 if you don't have Codex Discipline. That plus Honoured by Maccragge, are potentially powerful Strategums.

[Malakithe]

Im seeing a lot of mixed answers here. I dont think being able to pick 2 traits plus take Scions is correct. That would be 3 traits. I feel like more people would be talking about the potential of that yet I havent seen a single topic or list across every media/forum platform. Something like Scions + Long-range Markmen + Indomitable or whatever other combos could be nuts.

[Toxichobbit]

Im seeing a lot of mixed answers here. I dont think being able to pick 2 traits plus take Scions is correct. That would be 3 traits. I feel like more people would be talking about the potential of that yet I havent seen a single topic or list across every media/forum platform. Something like Scions + Long-range Markmen + Indomitable or whatever other combos could be nuts.

 

I think you are getting mixed up. Scions + 2 Successor Chapter Tactics is not three Tactics (I assume that's what you mean by traits - there's actually no such thing as Chapter traits), because Scions isn't a Chapter Tactic. It's a special rule that applies to all armies using the Ultramarines supplement, regardless of Chapter Tactic. And it is 100% legal to combine it with any of the Successor Chapter Tactics (apart from Inheitors from a non-Ultramarines Chapter, obviously).

 

The Ultramarines Chapter Tactic is Codex Discipline, which is unable to be combined with two other Successor Chapter Tactics. There has been talk about Scions + various Chapter Tactics. I've seen it on here, 1d4Chan, Reddit and YouTube videos, but no talk about combining Successor Chapter Tactics with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic for obvious reasons.

[Schlitzaf]

So for clarity sake; is there as a successor any downside to not using the Ultra Tactic and instead choosing two successor tactic, beside the character loss?

 

I.e successor with Ultra Tactic and successor with successor tactics are the same?

[Toxichobbit]

It's not just characters. You loose access to 12 datasheets. 7 are named characters, but the other 5 are standard units (Chapter Champion, Chapter Ancient, Honour Guard, Victrix Guard, Tyrannic War Veterans). You also loose access to the Ultramarines Relics, apart from being able to buy one using the Honoured By Macragge stratagem.

[Schlitzaf]

It's not just characters. You loose access to 12 datasheets. 7 are named characters, but the other 5 are standard units (Chapter Champion, Chapter Ancient, Honour Guard, Victrix Guard, Tyrannic War Veterans). You also loose access to the Ultramarines Relics, apart from being able to buy one using the Honoured By Macragge stratagem.

But are successor chapters with Ultra Trait and successor chapters with Successor Trait’s. Have same restrictions or do successor chapters with successor traits, have any additional penalties.

[Toxichobbit]

 

But are successor chapters with Ultra Trait and successor chapters with Successor Trait’s. Have same restrictions or do successor chapters with successor traits, have any additional penalties.

 

 

Tactics, not Traits.

 

All Successor Chapters are equal, regardless of Chapter Tactics. There's no restrictions placed on you for using a particular (pair of) Chapter Tactic. What matters is the parent Chapter (i.e. is the Successor a descendent of the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard etc). So whether an Ultramarines Successor is using two Successor Chapter Tactics or Inheritors of the Primarch (Ultra Chapter Tactics), they still have access to all the Ultramarines stuff listed in the last post.

[Schlitzaf]

I know this is an ultra forum, but as a BT player unless specific restrictions is given, I could use the IF Supplement if it has same wording.

[Toxichobbit]

I know this is an ultra forum, but as a BT player unless specific restrictions is given, I could use the IF Supplement if it has same wording.

 

That depends on how much unqiue stuff Black Templars get - I'd expect them to have some restriction on the stuff they will share with the Fists as well as having their own unique stuff. But this isn't the place for that discussion.

[Captain Idaho]

So for clarity sake; is there as a successor any downside to not using the Ultra Tactic and instead choosing two successor tactic, beside the character loss?

I.e successor with Ultra Tactic and successor with successor tactics are the same?

As I mentioned, there are 2 Strategums that are affected by this. Fallback and re-engage and Honoured by Maccragge.