Imperial Fists <<Chapter Master + Infiltrators>>

[L30n1d4s]

I was thinking about this and I realized that, with the new way that Chapter Master re-rolls work (i.e. you aren't forced to just re-roll misses; you can instead re-roll any dice, including hits), you can actually make Infiltrator squads pretty effective against high toughness targets like vehicles and monsters.

 

For example, a 10 man squad of Imperial Fist Infiltrators (with Tactical Doctrine on for AP-1) shooting against a T7 Rhino would normally get about 16-17 hits, 5-6 wounds, and 2-3 damage inflicted after the Rhino's Armor Saves.

 

However, if you have a nearby Chapter Master and use him to re-roll everything but 6s to Hit, that means you would get an average of 6-7 unmodified 6s, which translates to automatic 12-14 wounds (thanks to IF Chapter Tactics and the auto-wound mechanic on unmodified 6s to Hit for Infiltrator Bolters), plus another 2-3 wounds from the none auto-hit rolls... that comes to an average of somewhere between 14-17 wounds total and 7-9 damage inflicted after armor saves.... so, basically, about three times the damage against the Rhino because your are "forcing" re-rolls of all to Hit rolls except 6s in order to maximize your chance of getting more unmodified 6s (which in turn double themselves, thanks to IF Chapter Tactics, and become auto-wounds, thanks to Infiltrator's special Bolter rules.

 

So, what does all this mean? Well, it means that an IF Chapter Master with the Relic MCed Stalker Bolt Rifle and a 10 Man squad of nearby Infiltrators could kill a Rhino or Wave Serpent or Ghost Ark or Chimera with just "average" shooting from their small fire. Alternately, an IF Chapter Master with three full 10 Marine squads of Infiltrators nearby could realistically take down an Imperial Knight in a single shooting phase.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like your math might be off on what you kill. You only generate about 13 unsaved wounds from the infiltrators; tactical doctrine will help a lot, but you need to be on turn 2 by that point. Even against rhino style defensive stats, you only push through 5 unsaved from the infiltrators

[Lemondish]

I think you've made an assumption about Infiltrator carbine behaviour interacting with the Chapter Tactic that I'm not convinced applies. Does one additional hit count as an unmodified hit roll of 6 when no roll was involved in the generation of the hit? I'm not so sure.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That was the other thing that I was iffy on. I'd give it a tentative yes, but it's in need of a faq. Youre basically making an assumption that the additional hit from the 6 counts as having been scored with a 6 as you pointed out. Even if it does, it'll be better for gunning down stuff that you can more easily wound and get unsaved wounds on than vehicles. Orks, nids, gsc, etc. The type of stuff they're already a good pickup for. They might also be better than the incursors vs their "optimal" targets, at least as fists (quick math actually tells me they do a solid 10.5 unsaved vs the incursors 7.6, so the winner to be supported...if the interaction works). Edited August 23, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[jeremy1391]

Being as there is no hit roll made for the additional hits I’d argue that it is not a 6, I’m sure in the competitive scene pretty much every TO is going to rule it as just a “hit” not an “additional unmodified hit roll of 6”. I could be happily wrong if it gets FAQ’d.

[Mandragola]

I'm also pretty confident that the extra hit you get on a 6 doesn't count as an auto wound.

 

It's still interesting though, especially for my Crimson Fists. If I have infiltrators next to a chapter master then I should reroll anything but a 6, if I'm getting +1 to hit. Because I hit on anything but a 1 but on a 6 I get two hits, one of which has already wounded.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Because the wording is "each unmodified roll of 6 scores one additional hit" instead of "each roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of one" I am inclined to agree that the additional hit is just a regular hit, that said if you are just fishing for 6s I think this could still work fantastically, but who know maybe It will have even more interaction with their combat doctrine ability!

[Lemondish]

I'm comfortable with treating it as if it doesn't count, but I would like it to so I'm gonna head on over to the old email machine and send off that query to Gdubs directly. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lemondish

[casb1965]

I'd say you roll to hit, re-roll misses and then you have your unmodified dice rolls, of which any 6 counts as a double hit.

[Lemondish]

I'd say you roll to hit, re-roll misses and then you have your unmodified dice rolls, of which any 6 counts as a double hit.

 

I think the question was whether that additional hit counts as an automatic wound per the marksman bolt carbine rules, which would mean that fishing for 6s by re-rolling things that are not 6 would be kind of a neat way to maximize damage against harder to wound targets. This is really only possible now that the Chapter Master aura states you can reroll your hits, not just misses. 

 

I believe the consensus is 'no', but it would be nice for it to turn out to be a yes if the question gets asked enough times for an answer to appear in the 2 week FAQ :D

[casb1965]

 

I'd say you roll to hit, re-roll misses and then you have your unmodified dice rolls, of which any 6 counts as a double hit.

 

I think the question was whether that additional hit counts as an automatic wound per the marksman bolt carbine rules, which would mean that fishing for 6s by re-rolling things that are not 6 would be kind of a neat way to maximize damage against harder to wound targets. This is really only possible now that the Chapter Master aura states you can reroll your hits, not just misses. 

 

I believe the consensus is 'no', but it would be nice for it to turn out to be a yes if the question gets asked enough times for an answer to appear in the 2 week FAQ

 

 

My reasoning was you don't have your final dice roll until any rerolls are done, you then modify unmodified dice, at that point a 6 is a 6 regardless of rerolls made.

[Spinsanity]

My reasoning was you don't have your final dice roll until any rerolls are done, you then modify unmodified dice, at that point a 6 is a 6 regardless of rerolls made.

That’s never been at contention.

 

The issue is whether or not the extra hit you got from rolling a 6 is considered to have rolled a 6 or not since you never actually rolled for that hit - you just gained it for free.

 

+Edit: Since Infiltrator bolters auto-wound on 6s, do the 6s auto-wound once and generate an extra hit, or auto-wound twice?

Edited August 27, 2019 by Spinsanity

[casb1965]

 

My reasoning was you don't have your final dice roll until any rerolls are done, you then modify unmodified dice, at that point a 6 is a 6 regardless of rerolls made.

That’s never been at contention.

 

The issue is whether or not the extra hit you got from rolling a 6 is considered to have rolled a 6 or not since you never actually rolled for that hit - you just gained it for free.

 

+Edit: Since Infiltrator bolters auto-wound on 6s, do the 6s auto-wound once and generate an extra hit, or auto-wound twice?

 

 

My mistake I ignored the Infiltrator bolters, my reading is there's only 1 roll of a 6 so only 1 wound, the chapter tactic gives you another hit not another roll of 6.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

My reasoning was you don't have your final dice roll until any rerolls are done, you then modify unmodified dice, at that point a 6 is a 6 regardless of rerolls made.

That’s never been at contention.

 

The issue is whether or not the extra hit you got from rolling a 6 is considered to have rolled a 6 or not since you never actually rolled for that hit - you just gained it for free.

 

+Edit: Since Infiltrator bolters auto-wound on 6s, do the 6s auto-wound once and generate an extra hit, or auto-wound twice?

My mistake I ignored the Infiltrator bolters, my reading is there's only 1 roll of a 6 so only 1 wound, the chapter tactic gives you another hit not another roll of 6.

Welcome back to the thread! ;) Edited August 28, 2019 by Lemondish

[Spinsanity]

Well guess what, looks like this combo is hot as hell...

 

New FAQ, page 2:

Q. If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?

A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated them.

The FAQ even specifically mentions these rules to make it clear thes rules do interact this way...

[jeremy1391]

Being as there is no hit roll made for the additional hits I’d argue that it is not a 6, I’m sure in the competitive scene pretty much every TO is going to rule it as just a “hit” not an “additional unmodified hit roll of 6”. I could be happily wrong if it gets FAQ’d.

Wow I was wrong! Looks like I’m gonna need some infiltrators

[Lemondish]

 

Being as there is no hit roll made for the additional hits I’d argue that it is not a 6, I’m sure in the competitive scene pretty much every TO is going to rule it as just a “hit” not an “additional unmodified hit roll of 6”. I could be happily wrong if it gets FAQ’d.

Wow I was wrong! Looks like I’m gonna need some infiltrators

[DesSaboteur]

Just came here to report to my fellow brothers that with this clarification, Infiltrators may now be our best Troop choice. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by DesSaboteur

[Happy-inquisitor]

Well guess what, looks like this combo is hot as hell...

 

New FAQ, page 2:

Q. If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?

A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated them.

The FAQ even specifically mentions these rules to make it clear thes rules do interact this way...

 

 

If you can get them full rerolls they are pretty hot.

 

Just did a quick monte-carlo simulation and even against T8 targets you are getting something like 0.68 wounds per shot (before saves) if you reroll everything but 6's on the initial roll. Combo with a Chapter Master or the Soul Sight power for some surprising Knight-killing power from a troops unit.

 

The other thing is that negative modifiers to hit do not matter nearly so much because you are fishing for 6's and they hit (twice) regardless of negative modifiers due to the other part of the special rule on the weapon (always hit on a 6). So they are tolerably good against Eldar flyers as well. With massive negatives to hit and wounding on 5's I am still seeing something like 0.62 wounds per shot (before saves) which would chip away at Eldar flyers at a decent rate. They do not ignore negative modifiers but much of the damage output is coming from the unmodified rolls of 6 which are unaffected.

 

Of course it is an expensive unit but it is nice that at least it does something a bit different on the table - bolters which are decently good at killing a variety of hard targets.

 

EDIT: so long as you have full rerolls I am still seeing 0.6 wounds per shot (before saves) when firing overwatch at a T8 target. That did surprise me but it seems to be right - it is all about rolling 6's after all.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Happy-inquisitor

[Lemondish]

The only downside is that Chapter Master Vanguard captains don't interact with the comms specialist at all :(

[Happy-inquisitor]

The only downside is that Chapter Master Vanguard captains don't interact with the comms specialist at all

 

Yes I was afraid they would confirm that - as it seemed to be how the rule was written.

 

To be honest for Imperial/Crimson Fists getting table-wide rerolls on Infiltrators might have been a bit much when they clarified that each roll of 6 generates two auto-wounds. Perhaps having the auto-wounds and the reroll without distance limitation would have been too much of a good thing.

[Lemondish]

 

 

The only downside is that Chapter Master Vanguard captains don't interact with the comms specialist at all

Yes I was afraid they would confirm that - as it seemed to be how the rule was written.

 

To be honest for Imperial/Crimson Fists getting table-wide rerolls on Infiltrators might have been a bit much when they clarified that each roll of 6 generates two auto-wounds. Perhaps having the auto-wounds and the reroll without distance limitation would have been too much of a good thing.

We shall never know.

 

A pity that this kind of puts CF and IF Incursors to bed even further than they already were. I kind of liked those cylon helms, backpack cameras, the haywire mine, and knives. Though I guess I can still use that throwing knife arm on an Infiltrator even if they aren't technically knife fighters...

[durdle-durdle]

I’ve been struggling to find a balance between killing guardsmen and killing russes since my main opponent plays guard. While I’m not thrilled at the fluff of shooting the pipes of the Russ apart, it sounds like an amazing combo.