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The age old Company/City debate

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#1
Custodian Athiair

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After finally getting my hands on the next codex, I obviously jumped straight to the Salamanders section. I can't help feeling GW keep backing themselves into a corner with how they write our background.

 

7 major cities, each with a company pledged to it. Except the 7th company who are beholden to no one as they are scouts.

However it's also well established the first company have no connection to the cities due to their posting on Prometheus.

 

Which means there is at least one city - probably two - which is neglected by the Salamanders in terms of consistent protection/connection/recruitment from the companies. Which just feels wrong from how GW want us to perceive the Salamanders as "humanitarians".

 

Why not just give us 9 companies?

4 Battle line

3 Reserve

Scout

Firedrakes

 

And then the question goes away surely.


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
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#2
Kelborn

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Isn't there an eight company in the making since...6th or 7th edition?

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#3
Knight of the Raven

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I find the company system to be a mess to begin with, even without the Salamanders' take on it.

When, say, the 'Fourth Company' takes to battle, the chances are very high that every single tank is crewed with marines seconded from the tactical reserve company (whichever number it ends up having with the Salamanders) while all the land speeders pilots come from the assault reserve company. And even with the chapter's high number of terminator armors, some of the Firedrakes are probably among the strike force. And then there are the scouts, who can't really be deployed on their own, so it's likely they're kicking around somewhere too.

That's why the companies fighting across the galaxy are (or were, at least) referred to as "Battle Companies." Self-contained companies with specific numbers, specific officers and specific everything else is good on paper when it comes to organization and perhaps logistics, but in practice, there is no such thing as a 'pure company' sticking it to the enemies of the Imperium.

Of course, as with all the lore I mention, this is most likely outdated. This does precede Primaris and their new fancy battle roles. In fact, it's probably from before tactical marines were updated to be the culmination of the devastator and assault experiences; this particular White Dwarf was about 4th edition space marines.

Going back to the Salamanders in particular as opposed to space marines in general, remember Dak'ir? Main protagonist of the Tome of Fire trilogy? He doesn't come from any of the cities. He hailed from the caves crisscrossing beneath the surface of Nocturne, from an albino-like people who... subsisted on mushroom or something, I guess. And his best friend in the same squad, Ba'ken, came from the city known for the most aggressive and warlike tribesmen, I believe. And then there was Tsu'gan, son of one previous king of Hesiod, another city. And then there's wherever Iagon crawled out from, which I assume is a third city altogether.

And they were all in the Third Company.

And that's without mentioning the two companies—whichever they may be, with whichever Salamanders as I mentioned earlier—which I assume have been stuck on Armageddon since the Third War because of the time dilation caused by the Cicatrix Maledictum.

In the end, I guess only Nick Kyme knows the answer to this question. Or at least, that he has his claws latching so deep into the Salamanders that no one else will dare come out with an official answer without his express consent...


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#4
sal of manders

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The wording in the current codex makes it sound like the companies aren't in a one to one relationship with the great cities anymore; the 7th company i.e. scouts/vanguard company are explicitly stated as recruiting from ALL the settlements.  I think the intention of the writing is that, pre-second founding (i.e. before legions got split), each of the great houses of the Salamanders legion was tied to a specific settlement.

 

HOWEVER, after Vulkan's acceptance of the new codex astartes, while the other legions were split, the new Salamanders chapter simply re-organized their structure to something more in line with the new codex.  Namely, having a veteran company, dedicated battle companies, reserve companies, and a scout / new recruits company. 

 

The total number of companies would be kept at seven as a matter of tradition, but they wouldn't be each tied to a specific settlement anymore. Thus, the same company might have brothers performing civilian duties in multiple settlements, and the same settlement might have members of multiple companies operating in it. Considering the majority of the chapter is likely going to be off world, AND the Salamanders don't have the numbers they did back when they were still a legion; they'd probably HAVE to do it like that, as a matter of practicality.

 

That's at least my interpretation of what's in the codex.


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#5
Lord_Caerolion

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At least it's better than one of the previous books, which stated they have 7 Companies and a Scout Company, then show only 7 total in the next page. I've just given up on GW providing a proper description for the Salamanders organization.


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#6
MegaVolt87

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Still confused after all these years. So you guys have what 700 marines? or are you like the SW with more than 100 dudes a company for 1k+? 


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#7
sal of manders

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Still confused after all these years. So you guys have what 700 marines? or are you like the SW with more than 100 dudes a company for 1k+? 

 

yes and no on the space wolf comparison. 

Salamanders have larger, but fewer companies, making them smaller than a normal marine chapter.  

 

As per multiple previous codex's; all companies except the scout company are 120 marines each (i.e. 12 ten man squads), with a scout company numbering roughly half that (for 60 scouts). so pre-ultima founding the sallies would be 840 marines versus the 900 of a standard chapter; Note that's not including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.

 

The inclusion of vanguard effectively gave all chapters an extra company, so assuming the vanguard for the salamanders are equivalent in number to the rest of their companies, that's a further 12 squads for the sallies. 

That would put the new numbers at 960 marines, versus the 1000 of a standard codex chapter.  Here again, that's NOT including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.



#8
Custodian Athiair

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Still confused after all these years. So you guys have what 700 marines? or are you like the SW with more than 100 dudes a company for 1k+? 

 

yes and no on the space wolf comparison. 

Salamanders have larger, but fewer companies, making them smaller than a normal marine chapter.  

 

As per multiple previous codex's; all companies except the scout company are 120 marines each (i.e. 12 ten man squads), with a scout company numbering roughly half that (for 60 scouts). so pre-ultima founding the sallies would be 840 marines versus the 900 of a standard chapter; Note that's not including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.

 

The inclusion of vanguard effectively gave all chapters an extra company, so assuming the vanguard for the salamanders are equivalent in number to the rest of their companies, that's a further 12 squads for the sallies. 

That would put the new numbers at 960 marines, versus the 1000 of a standard codex chapter.  Here again, that's NOT including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.

 

 

 

Ooooh you raise a good point here. With the induction of the "Vanguard" as a company, would that constituent a 7th "full company" assigned to a sanctuary city

(Obviously that leaves either the Firedrakes manning a city, or one left assigned, or the previously mentioned it's a symbolic 7 companies/7 cities thing)

 

But then you have the neophytes (aka "true scouts") who are the ones not affiliated to a company, per se, and roam the mountains and deserts?


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#9
sal of manders

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Still confused after all these years. So you guys have what 700 marines? or are you like the SW with more than 100 dudes a company for 1k+? 

 

yes and no on the space wolf comparison. 

Salamanders have larger, but fewer companies, making them smaller than a normal marine chapter.  

 

As per multiple previous codex's; all companies except the scout company are 120 marines each (i.e. 12 ten man squads), with a scout company numbering roughly half that (for 60 scouts). so pre-ultima founding the sallies would be 840 marines versus the 900 of a standard chapter; Note that's not including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.

 

The inclusion of vanguard effectively gave all chapters an extra company, so assuming the vanguard for the salamanders are equivalent in number to the rest of their companies, that's a further 12 squads for the sallies. 

That would put the new numbers at 960 marines, versus the 1000 of a standard codex chapter.  Here again, that's NOT including scouts and command/support staff for either of those numbers.

 

 

 

Ooooh you raise a good point here. With the induction of the "Vanguard" as a company, would that constituent a 7th "full company" assigned to a sanctuary city

(Obviously that leaves either the Firedrakes manning a city, or one left assigned, or the previously mentioned it's a symbolic 7 companies/7 cities thing)

 

But then you have the neophytes (aka "true scouts") who are the ones not affiliated to a company, per se, and roam the mountains and deserts?

 

 

 

Wording puts the vanguard as  part of the "scout" company, which is explicitly stated to have no oath's binding it to any of the cities, so a "one company per city" arrangement still doesn't work.

 

It honestly feels to me like the lore description is now trying to imply (without explicitly stating) that the great houses of the old legion were one house per city, but the companies of the current chapter are not.  The seven company structure is stated as "echoing" the old great houses, but that does NOT mean it mimics them entirely in function, meaning that you could, (and would probably have to, considering how the 7th company is treated), have overlapping responsibilities between the first six companies in regards to the cities. It's either that, or the 7th company is managing a city without technically being required to.


Edited by sal of manders, 28 August 2019 - 04:36 PM.

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#10
Xisor

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It would be nice if this was dealt with explicitly.

However, they did deal explicitly with the Clan Companies of the Iron Hands during the Raukaan period of warmth and good cheer from IH fans, so I won't hold my breath for a perfect solution.

I will say: just retrofit to be 7 proper city-based Companies, +Fire drakes on the moon, and +Scouts bouncing about in a moe fluid, vague fashion that is typically 60-ish Scouts at any one time and be done with it.

(Vanguard are just more people in city companies & moonlighting Firedrakes?)

Edited by Xisor, 10 September 2019 - 05:20 PM.

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#11
Lord_Caerolion

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Vanguard are just part of the 10th Company, as Scouts are finally confirmed to not count as full Battle Brothers, given they lack the full range of implants, and thus are not "full" Space Marines just yet.

 

I'd be overjoyed if they did what they always kinda describe, and go with the Firedrakes on Prometheus, 7 Companies in the 7 Cities, and Scouts/Vanguard just being sneaky in the wilderness.


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