The Emperor and the Primarchs

[Klod]

 

 

 

That isn't exactly conjecture, Malcador told his dying astropath that the Emperor and he actually paved the way for the HH, by pitting the Primarchs against each other and treating them poorly. The thunderwarriors had a sell by date, but the Astartes are functionally immortal, so the way they planned to get rid of them was a civil war, that being the HH. Though some people believe that he was just telling the astropath that to console her, but I don't otherwise he wouldn't say 'would it console you if I told you..." and when she asked would the emperor win, Malcador would have said yes if he was consoling her rather than 'I can't see the future.'

In what novel does it say all that?

It was a short story. It’s also not true. Malcador was just trying to make the dying listener feel better.

 

No, that isn't explicitly expressed.  You can argue that it was alluded to him just comforting her, but you cannot say in any way shape or form that it isn't true.  If you listened to it you would realise that isn't the case.  Its up to the listener to decide whether its true or not.

 

Well I just listened to it and at the end Malcador says:

 

You promised me it wouldn’t be like this. I lie to them to spare their sorrow, even as I envy their mortality, and it breaks my heart.

[Klod]

So back on the topic of "The Emperor planned the Heresy". Are there any other novels or short stories that support this claim? Because the above mentioned "First Lord of the Imperium" doesn't.

[mc warhammer]

So back on the topic of "The Emperor planned the Heresy". Are there any other novels or short stories that support this claim? Because the above mentioned "First Lord of the Imperium" doesn't.

as mentioned, “the board is set” could be used to argue for it

 

otherwise, it’s just LG’s non canonical musings on the first exp forum

[ERJAK]

The emperor was a dick that failed to see those around him as people often enough that he caused the future he was most afraid of.

[mc warhammer]

for those who want to read the musings:

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

 

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

 

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss:, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

please, please, please note the use and stress of the word "maybe" in the above. k thanx bye

 

=][= Swear filter dodge removed =][=

Edited October 11, 2019 by Dam13n

[Closet Skeleton]

 

So, basically, this is the source for the current Imperium being ripped in half and this is the Psychic Awakening event we're about to see?

 

 

Humanity's inevitable psychic awakening is old SF and New Age lore that was part of the soup of first edition 40k and then re-introduced in one of the latter rulebooks after 3rd edition made everything super vague.

[Klod]

 

So back on the topic of "The Emperor planned the Heresy". Are there any other novels or short stories that support this claim? Because the above mentioned "First Lord of the Imperium" doesn't.

as mentioned, “the board is set” could be used to argue for it

 

otherwise, it’s just LG’s non canonical musings on the first exp forum

 

I just read "The Board is Set". Really nice short story, I enjoyed it a lot. Although it really doesn't prove anything. 

So that is all? I am surprised by how little there is to support this theory. On r/40kLore I saw people discuss things and they were convinced that that theory is basically canon. 

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

So back on the topic of "The Emperor planned the Heresy". Are there any other novels or short stories that support this claim? Because the above mentioned "First Lord of the Imperium" doesn't.

as mentioned, “the board is set” could be used to argue for it

 

otherwise, it’s just LG’s non canonical musings on the first exp forum

I just read "The Board is Set". Really nice short story, I enjoyed it a lot. Although it really doesn't prove anything.

So that is all? I am surprised by how little there is to support this theory. On r/40kLore I saw people discuss things and they were convinced that that theory is basically canon.

 

well, no one theory about the emperor is “proven” really. when you take those ambiguous stories (and possibly let lg’s musings influence you)...it’s no less (but also no more) valid than any other

[TorvaldTheMild]

for those who want to read the musings:

 

 

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

 

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

 

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

please, please, please note the use and stress of the word "maybe" in the above. k thanx bye

Even if he didn't plan it, No the Emperor isn't an idiot. People that say that, only believe it because they have the gift of foresight. They also believe he is omniscient and that he should have seen all this happen. Horus turning was completely unfathomable and so is the other traitors turning, who would think that 9 or the most powerful individuals and the galaxy would turn to the force of evil chaos gods because their dad said mean things and didn't show them enough attention. I mean its an unbelievable event. He didn't tell them about Chaos and rightly so, seeing how they all turned for the most petty and frivolous reasons and what kind of individual is going to make packs with intelligence's in the warp without knowing about chaos. Also the Imperium needs to stop their population from knowing about Chaos because it ends in a show when populations find out. A lot of it also has a hell of a lot to do with peoples favourite Primarch, trying to defend their choices by saying it was the Emperors fault, Magnus is the best example of this. He was incredible weak, arrogant and short sighted and only cared about himself and the knowledge he could acre and yet people try their best to exculpate him from his failures. Edited October 11, 2019 by Dam13n

[MegaVolt87]

I dunno telling the beings that are on your level or almost there that there are evil cosmic gods that will try to ensnare them and make them pawns and slaves would better prepare them to resist. Plus they could more readily spot the rot in their legions as well. Plus the Emperor would know who to keep a closer watch on based on the reaction of each Primarch. He really took a 50/50 roll on every primarchs ultimate fealty by not doing this. 

[Ascanius]

I feel like, in Laurie Goulding's theory outlined above (which I also have saved for these discussions!), the main issue seems to be that the Emperor didn't recognise the Primarchs as having more agency than other human or transhuman beings in his Imperium. He can rely on the Imperium's structures to prevent any one person's disobedience to his strictures from causing too great a problem, but that doesn't apply to the score of beings in whom he has invested part of his own power, powers, and authority.

 

In essence, it's a story of a father realising that his sons have become not just extensions of his will who follow his instructions because he's the authority in their lives, but independent beings making their own decisions - and depending on how and how well you tell it, this kind of story is either archetypal or stereotypical.

 

His plan would have worked if either the Primarchs had obeyed his commands to keep away from religion and Chaos in full¹, or they hadn't been such powerful beings who could command the loyalty (if not always love or respect) of their Legions².

 

1: For instance, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would presumably have always remained loyal to the Ruinous Powers, but if Lorgar had just done what he was told (at multiple points!) then they wouldn't have been able to win him over in the depths of his despair by convincing him that a horrible truth is more worthy than a noble lie.

 

2: For instance, Fabricator-General Kelbor Hal always resented the Emperor for assuming the position of the Omnissiah and forbidding research into certain technologies, but if the Martian civil war had broken out in the same way without the support of the Traitor Legions, it would have been a much more manageable revolt.

[Karhedron]

Even if he didn't plan it, No the Emperor isn't an idiot.  People that say that, only believe it because they have the gift of foresight.  They also believe he is omniscient and that he should have seen all this happen.

Agreed. The Emperor explicitly explains to Ra in MoM, that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. His foresight is powerful but not all-encompassing. He describes it as like being a ship on the ocean. He can see the waves and the land he is heading for but he can't see what is happening beneath the surface. There are currents, rocks and monsters in those deeps and they can blindside him just like anyone else.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Even if he didn't plan it, No the Emperor isn't an idiot.  People that say that, only believe it because they have the gift of foresight.  They also believe he is omniscient and that he should have seen all this happen.

Agreed. The Emperor explicitly explains to Ra in MoM, that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. His foresight is powerful but not all-encompassing. He describes it as like being a ship on the ocean. He can see the waves and the land he is heading for but he can't see what is happening beneath the surface. There are currents, rocks and monsters in those deeps and they can blindside him just like anyone else.

 

Also in Outcast Dead he already explains this to Kai Zulane: “I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Always stuck me as an odd sentence that. Surely to be all knowing is to be all powerful? (Kinda intertwined) Problem is we never explicitly see the Emperors true characteristics. So we can never place him in a certain category with room for character growth and Development. I kinda wanna see him as an "Ascended" Robby Guilliman.  Painfully aware of his own limitations and personal capability yet still endeavouring to achieve more.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Always stuck me as an odd sentence that. Surely to be all knowing is to be all powerful? (Kinda intertwined) Problem is we never explicitly see the Emperors true characteristics. So we can never place him in a certain category with room for character growth and Development. I kinda wanna see him as an "Ascended" Robby Guilliman.  Painfully aware of his own limitations and personal capability yet still endeavouring to achieve more.

Yeah if you were all powerful you could make yourself all knowing.  

[Red_Shift]

When the Emperor created the primarchs, I wonder if he engineered their personalities artificially, or if he is a God, whether he divested a piece of his own power into each of them. If the latter then it would explain why he allowed the debate into the use of librarians. It would almost be like weighing up the arguments made by different parts of his own mind. If they were disposable creations, why did he risk allowing the clearly unstable Angron and Curze to run loose?

[TorvaldTheMild]

When the Emperor created the primarchs, I wonder if he engineered their personalities artificially, or if he is a God, whether he divested a piece of his own power into each of them. If the latter then it would explain why he allowed the debate into the use of librarians. It would almost be like weighing up the arguments made by different parts of his own mind. If they were disposable creations, why did he risk allowing the clearly unstable Angron and Curze to run loose?

Well he invested his DNA into their own DNA so he engineered them to be individual but also to impart his own genetic traits to theirs, so a lot of their physiology and biology come straight from the Emperor as does a lot of their personalities; like we share personality traits with our family, though how much of that is nature and how much is nurture can be debated.  Cruze asked that very same question, stating that he believes he was destined to become what he is because he actually tried to be good and honorable, but the Primarchs share so many traits with their homeworlds, Cruze would not be obsessed with dishing out punishment if he didn't grow up on Nocturn.  Angron was completely different before the nails, he was actually pretty gentle and extremely caring, so he's an outlier to the rest of the Primarchs, his personality was pretty much destroyed because of the nails, the Emperor didn't intend for any of that.  Every one of the Primarchs is shares so much of the culture and experience of their home worlds, Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Dorn are probably the least influenced by his homeworld.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Ascanius]

The "all-powerful versus all-knowing" issue is a moot point, since the Emperor is demonstrably neither.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Always stuck me as an odd sentence that. Surely to be all knowing is to be all powerful? (Kinda intertwined) Problem is we never explicitly see the Emperors true characteristics. So we can never place him in a certain category with room for character growth and Development. I kinda wanna see him as an "Ascended" Robby Guilliman.  Painfully aware of his own limitations and personal capability yet still endeavouring to achieve more.

Yeah if you were all powerful you could make yourself all knowing.  

 

 

The point is that "all-knowing" includes definitive knowledge of the future (otherwise you aren't all-knowing), which implies that the future is set, which means you can't change it, which means you aren't all-powerful. It's the whole "can an omnipotent god make a rock so large even the god can't lift it" thing. If yes, it's not omnipotent, if no then it's also not omnipotent.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[Brother Tholath]

Or... All-Knowing means you can see all of the future, all the different paths it could take, all the different "rivers" of time as it were. But you cannot change all of those rivers to end up at the one place you need them to go.

 

All-powerful, would be being able to change those streams, but not know where they will end up when you make that change.

 

My 2p!

[Lord_Caerolion]

But then that implies you can't dictate exactly what would happen, as multiple possible futures implies that there is inherent uncertainty, otherwise you'd be able to dictate the eventual result.

[Karhedron]

If they were disposable creations, why did he risk allowing the clearly unstable Angron and Curze to run loose?

The Emperor explains this in MoM too. The Crusade was a on a tight schedule and needed its superhuman generals leading its transhuman armies. Humanity only had a brief window of opportunity to reunite after the Fall of the Eldar. Without the Primarchs, the Great Crusade would have gotten bogged down and proceeded too slowly. Other races (likely Orks in particular) would have taken advantage of the power vacuum to expand rapidly and become the dominant species in the galaxy.

 

The Emperor realised that several of the Primarchs were flawed (fatally so in Angron's case) but took the calculated risk to deploy them anyway. He probably calculated that any damage they would cause could be contained whereas the failure of the Great Crusade to proceed on schedule could well doom humanity to extinction.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Always stuck me as an odd sentence that. Surely to be all knowing is to be all powerful? (Kinda intertwined) Problem is we never explicitly see the Emperors true characteristics. So we can never place him in a certain category with room for character growth and Development. I kinda wanna see him as an "Ascended" Robby Guilliman.  Painfully aware of his own limitations and personal capability yet still endeavouring to achieve more.

Yeah if you were all powerful you could make yourself all knowing.  

 

 

The point is that "all-knowing" includes definitive knowledge of the future (otherwise you aren't all-knowing), which implies that the future is set, which means you can't change it, which means you aren't all-powerful. It's the whole "can an omnipotent god make a rock so large even the god can't lift it" thing. If yes, it's not omnipotent, if no then it's also not omnipotent.

 

No that's not true.  If you can see the future and you have the power to change it, you'll know of an endless amount of possible futures, you'll be able to change it. 

[Karhedron]

To be fair, Outcast Dead is not exactly the literary highlight of the HH series. I think the author was trying to imply there was some sort of Heisenberg Uncertainty principle applying to the Emperor's abilities but it didn't come across very well. Edited September 27, 2019 by Karhedron

[TorvaldTheMild]

To be fair, Outcast Dead is not exactly the literary highlight of the HH series. I think the author was trying to imply there was some sort of Pauli-exclusion principle applying to the Emperor's abilities but it didn't come across very well.

I liked it.  Not sure what you mean about the Pauli-exclusion principle.  Granted he can't be both at the same time as electrons can't share the same space but I really don't think he was influenced by that.  I think he is trying to express the fact that if you are omniscient then you are powerless to change the future, so you can only use your foresight to see glimpses and if you are omnipotent you can see the future as you would change it.

Edited September 27, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild