How will the Psychic Awakening affect the Grey Knights?

[Archon_77]

I disagree completely.  We got MUCH stronger and are definitely going to be an "A" tier army.  (Not "S" tier, as IH, IF, RG are but still).   We got few buffs to units in the book because the points drops in CA 2020 handled that.  The new book gave us buffs to all our force multipliers.  Thus, we are a "thinking mans army" designed to hit devastating combos at the right time.  Combined with our already very strong "movement" (deep strike, gate), and newly devastating Psychic phase,  Mono GK is going to be very very strong in competitive tournament style lists, and most especially ITC style events of which all the bigger tournaments are either already in or moving towards.  This is an absolute win, and we will ALWAYS have a chance at taking on the big dogs and coming out on top. . . which absolutely was not the case before.

[techsoldaten]

I disagree completely.  We got MUCH stronger and are definitely going to be an "A" tier army.  (Not "S" tier, as IH, IF, RG are but still).   We got few buffs to units in the book because the points drops in CA 2020 handled that.  The new book gave us buffs to all our force multipliers.  Thus, we are a "thinking mans army" designed to hit devastating combos at the right time.  Combined with our already very strong "movement" (deep strike, gate), and newly devastating Psychic phase,  Mono GK is going to be very very strong in competitive tournament style lists, and most especially ITC style events of which all the bigger tournaments are either already in or moving towards.  This is an absolute win, and we will ALWAYS have a chance at taking on the big dogs and coming out on top. . . which absolutely was not the case before.

How I wish I could agree.

 

Help me understand your perspective better.

 

What are the devastating combos, what are the units that will pull them off? What are the key improvements to the psychic phase that will lead Grey Knights to prevail against all others?

 

I see the Tides, I see the new Psychic powers, I see the new Relics, and I think I'm still looking at Grey Knights.

[Tralador]

Point 1, our strike squads are now pointed to be the same as primaris marines. Smite, Storm bolters, and force swords mean we are more glass hammer than them, but played well they have some level of parity now.

 

Point 2, if you can pull it off, turn 2, your entire army can throw down 2 damage smites (likely 12-15 of them) switch into convergence and then use psycannons, psilencers, and psybolt Storm bolters to deliver a serious kick in the teeth. It may even be worth ‘hiding’ turn one and coming out hard on turn 2.

 

Point 3, bring it down allows us to have a much better time with big vehicles and our new strategems for all of our specialist units add some much needed survivability to them. Purifiers with warding staves to complement their shiny new 4++, interceptors with falling back (or, more likely, forward), and even purgators with their anti charge are all in a better place.

 

The army will live or die on its CP usage and psychic phase, but both are much better than they were.

 

Before these changes, an IF gun line IMO would have been an auto-lose. Now, I think a turn 2 drop with Escalation into Convergence with a gated purgator squad followed up by a GMDK with First to the Fray and everyone charging should, if nothing else, give you a solid chance at victory.

[angrom]

Honestly I don't really see the benefit of the tide of escalation. Sure, we have been asking a boost in our smite for ages but I feel like in all instances tide of convergences and shadows are strictly better. As most of our psykers will have to cast other powers but smite (cp, out of line of sight , sanctuary..) I think at best we will have the luxury for casting 3-5 smites. I think the tide of convergence have a lot more potential for damage than 3-5 mortal wounds. Also when it comes to survivability the +1 save -1 to hit will always be more preferable for the subsequent turn than ditching an extra 5 mortal wounds with very little impact on the overall turn.

[Gaz1858]

With the way I have been building my lists and my playstyle i will be using Shadows followed by Escalation. 

 

My army has 15 units in it with Smite. 2 of those wont be casting probably as they have other roles but the rest probably will. Over the course of a game this means escalation, for me, will be best from turn 2. Understand though others may take Convergence if theyve gone down the Special Weapon route. I personally dont like our special weapons as it was always the negatives to hit and loss of a NFW that hurt them and that hasnt changed with PA. 

 

My game plan when building a list is turn 1 Inner Fire and (hopefully)Super vortex with a TLL/ML Dread Astral Aiming whith a Guidance/Power Chappy next to it.

 

Turn 2 Same again with 2MW Smites now coming in from all the deep strike, shunts etc plus Inner Fire and Super Vortex. 

 

After that see what happens. All going well thats a ton of Mortal Wounds for any opponent to deal with in only the first two turns.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Gaz1858

[Waking Dreamer]

I think these PA4 rules gives us the tools to compete at a competitive level (granted top mono-GK players were already competing before PA4).

But what I actually like more is...these rules aren't the obvious "point and remove unit from table" strong. Our units aren't as powerful as a triple Riptides with 20 shield drones combo, and our rules bonuses aren't Ironhands level buffed by any means - which in turn means...we won't just get a ten-fold influx of "GK players". At a competitive level you have to still play absolutely cagey (to survive the top firepower coming your way), and then you need to have your timing lined up to near perfection (to cripple the toughest of defenses)...but when you do all that this time around - you WILL make other armies hurt for sure!

Edited January 22, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Corvus Fortis]

Honestly I don't really see the benefit of the tide of escalation.

 

 

On paper, Convergence has way more potential damage than Escalation. But only on paper. In fact, you have to stack buffs to bring it at full efficiency. Many of them can be used on a single target only per turn. So to make most of ToC you have to spam heavy weapons. And our heavy weapons are still suffer -1 to-hit on move and still only 24" and still on 1 wound 3+ sv platform with 6" movement. If your opponent just wipes all your heavy weapon turn 2 or 3, then what? There are a lot of things you have to answer to. How to deliver HW to operational range? How to survive enemy counter-attack? How to negate movement penalties? How to stick chaplain near most important squad (and he chants litanies at the start of turn before you DS or GoI)?

 

Now look at the tide of escalation? Can you cast smite 6 time per turn? That's a dead medium vehicle almost for free. Note that we cast most of our powers just because we didn't have anything better to do anyway. There are turns when we can easily bypass hammerhand, astral aim purge soul, vortex or even GoI. Sanctuary is probably the only power we still want to cast every turn from sactic. There are only 3 autocast powers from dominus - tide shift, +CP and -1 to-wound. You can easily pull out 5-7 smites every turn. The best point of ToE is that it is easy to pull of and consistant. If your weapons are killed if chaplain is brought down, if you are out of CP, ToC-build is screwed. ToE will give its benifits as long as psykers are on the table. It doesn't necessary need statagems or stong characters to work. And, unless you face a heavy magic-resistant army, your opponent cannot do much against it but just kill all of your units. And, of course, it is not just that. You still have your shooting and melee.

 

On the tide of shadows - don't overestimate it either. There are still ignore cover weapons, there are still mortal wounds, there are still medium strength, medium ap but high RoF weapons that are anathema to GK. And you cannot kill your opponent by just sitting in cover - you are still just old GK without ToE or ToC. Don't expect ToS will help you to withstand full shooting phase from your opponent in plain open just by itself.

 

But the key to victory lies in correct shifts between different tides. Even tide of fury triggered at necessary moment can be very useful. But for ToC I see way more potency at Psybolt Ammo combos that at heavy weapons. Reason is the same as for ToE - you will always have them and even 20 shots 6 -1 2 can cripple something. The problems are - 1) they still need CP, 2) it is still only a single unit. I don't believe at purgators as a good platform for Psycannons/Psilencers. Paladins seem way better at this and they will be multipurpose unit.

[Waking Dreamer]

Just a quick question about some of the Litanies of Purity:

 

 

The Focus (+1AP to a NFW or a psi weapon) and Guidance litanies (ignore hit roll and ballistic skill modifiers for a ranged weapon)  have very specific wording:

 

Each time it explicitly states,  "an attack"...."made by a model in that unit" for a "ranged/psi/nemesis weapon", it never uses the plural models or weapons. This is completely different to the Projection litany which explicitly states adding 6" to the unit's "models" which have bolt/psi "weapons".

 

Does this mean the first 2 litanies only affects ONE model in the unit...even though it's part of a 5-10 model unit?

 

Wouldn't this make those litanies near useless on GK Infantry and only worth it on vehicles like dreadknights, dreadnoughts, landraiders etc.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

Just a quick question about some of the Litanies of Purity:

 

 

The Focus (+1AP to a NFW or a psi weapon) and Guidance litanies (ignore hit roll and ballistic skill modifiers for a ranged weapon) have very specific wording:

 

Each time it explicitly states, "an attack"...."made by a model in that unit" for a "ranged/psi/nemesis weapon", it never uses the plural models or weapons. This is completely different to the Projection litany which explicitly states adding 6" to the unit's models which have and bolt/psi weapons.

 

Does this mean the first 2 litanies only affects ONE model in the unit...even though it's part of a 5-10 model unit?

 

Wouldn't this make those litanies near useless on GK Infantry and only worth it on vehicles like dreadknights and dreadnoughts?

In the British English used by GW, "a" stands for "any" and "one" stands for "a single" ;)

 

So it's clear that Litanies are fully worded to work on entire units :D

[Captain Coolpants]

When it says it negates the modifiers for shooting. Does that also include the penalty for moving with heavy weapons?

[Corvus Fortis]

Does this mean the first 2 litanies only affects ONE model in the unit...even though it's part of a 5-10 model unit?

 

 

This is how GW wordes stuff since codex SM 2.0. I don't get why they started to do it. Probably they wanted to eliminate some ambiguities, IDK. One way or another, all models in unit receive effect of litanies, nothing to worry about.

 

When it says it negates the modifiers for shooting. Does that also include the penalty for moving with heavy weapons?

 

 

Yes, it does.

[Archaeinox]

Someone in my area is talking about using their old 5th edition list they still have, with tons of Razorbacks and MSU strike squads. He can probably make a double battalion list with some Dreadknights for support and I have to say as a TS player I'm terrified. 

 

All my smites will go at his tanks if he rushes up, but won't kill them all, then he can hop out at closer range and Smite stuff at consistent 2 mortals, right? That's pretty solid in the vacuum matchup I'm describing especially considering that my sorcerer screens are All is Dust units and not tons of cultists or tzaangors. Oof! Would be a good fight.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Corvus Fortis]

Ok, so I did a little math out of my head, and it seems that point-for-point Psycannons and Psilencers under Tide of Convergence are about equal. Psycannons will perform better against armored targets and way less dependent on Focus/stratagems. They do more damage than psilencers almost to any kind of targets except massed GEQ - they are equal here. In most cases Psychic onslaught won't be needed if you have access to chaplain's prayer, since S8 and S9 will perform equally to the most of common T values, except T8. Psilencer will perform better point for point against more marginal stuff like Tyranid Warriors, t6 monsters and vehicles with low save, etc. Psilencers are also way more dependent on Focus. It will also recieve more from Bring Down the beast, since psycannons will already wound most targets on 2+ or 3+.

 

So, here's my thoughts:

 

1. If you want to utilize tide of convergence - spam psycannons. They will perform better than psilencers and not dependend on buffs as much;

2. Psilencers are better to bring against special types of targets - t3 low save troops or low toughness/save creature;

3. Psychic Onslaught is very rarely worth it. Spend CP's on psybolt ammunition for similar result against most targets or use Bring down the Beast;

4. If you are not going to use ToC much, better avoid special weapons and use psybolt ammunition to take down someting important.

[TheMostGood]

Ok, so I did a little math out of my head, and it seems that point-for-point Psycannons and Psilencers under Tide of Convergence are about equal. Psycannons will perform better against armored targets and way less dependent on Focus/stratagems. They do more damage than psilencers almost to any kind of targets except massed GEQ - they are equal here. In most cases Psychic onslaught won't be needed if you have access to chaplain's prayer, since S8 and S9 will perform equally to the most of common T values, except T8. Psilencer will perform better point for point against more marginal stuff like Tyranid Warriors, t6 monsters and vehicles with low save, etc. Psilencers are also way more dependent on Focus. It will also recieve more from Bring Down the beast, since psycannons will already wound most targets on 2+ or 3+.

 

So, here's my thoughts:

 

1. If you want to utilize tide of convergence - spam psycannons. They will perform better than psilencers and not dependend on buffs as much;

2. Psilencers are better to bring against special types of targets - t3 low save troops or low toughness/save creature;

3. Psychic Onslaught is very rarely worth it. Spend CP's on psybolt ammunition for similar result against most targets or use Bring down the Beast;

4. If you are not going to use ToC much, better avoid special weapons and use psybolt ammunition to take down someting important.

u/Xlem1 on reddit did some math as well. 

 

 

Takeaways at the bottom

the question racing through everyone's mind ever since the reveal of the new tides has been how can you best take advantage of psyweapons during the tide of convergance, either with psybolt ammunition, or 4 man purgatory squads and more, well ladies and gentlemen I have some finding to present.

firstly my methodology, to get the most accurate and comparable results, I decided to compare 3 separate load-outs of a 10 man squad of paladins.

• 10 storm bolter(440 pts)
• 6 storm bolters 4 psycannons (460pts)
• 6 storm bolters 4 psilencers (448pts)

I did this because it's very easy to take these findings and then transplant them to other units, simply remove the bolters and you get a 4 man purgatory squad etc. I also assumed you would only use either psychic onslaught or psybolt ammunition, and not both at the same time I have notated them as (strat). assuming no rerolls or any other buffs beside tide and the two prior strats, though I do talk about them at the end.

Guard

• storm bolter: 19
• psilencers: heavy weapon kills: 11(strat)7(no strat) you lose 2 kills if you move(+7 wounds from bolters )
• psycannons: heavy weapon kills: 9(strat) 7(no strat) you lose 2 kills if you move(+7 wounds from bolters )

marines/ Primaris

• stormbotlers: 8.8 kills
• psilencers: heavy weapon kills: 5.3(strat)3.5(no strat) (+2.6 additional wounds from bolters) lose a kill if you move
• psycannons: heavy weapon kills: 5.9(strat) 4.4(no strat) (+2.6 additional wounds from bolters) lose 2 kills if you move,

both heavy weapons are about equal here if they move, so take that as you will

T7 and T8 vehicles

• storm bolters(10): 9 wounds
• spilencers(no bolters): With strat 10 wounds (lose 2 if you move) no strat(t7 and t8) 5.33 (+1 wound from bolters)
• psycannons(no bolters): with start :11 wounds (lose 2 if you move) no strat (T7): 7.11 (T8):5.33 (+1 wound from bolters)

*Bring down the beast(strategem that grants reroll all wound rolls against vehicles) changes some stuff up a little, it actually makes psilencers out preform psycannons against vehicles. just 4 psilencers do 13.3 damage 4 psycannons do 12.5

Take aways and other small notes

• adding a psilencer/psycannon to you 10 man squad is not worth it, no psychic onslaught psyweapons are out preformed by psybolt ammunition against all but vehicles, and even then only barely
• honestly, just don't use psychic onslaught, the most additional wounds it can get is 5, for 2 cp Nah brah
• psybolt on a 5 man/6man unit may be justifiable when targeting primaris, it gets you a smooth 8 additional wounds, outside of primaris...well at most your looking at 4 wounds generally so meh
• psycannons- not a good delivery method for psychic onslaught, the added strength only helps them against T8 units, this sucks but it also means they don't lose as much if they don't use it; when no strats are used psycannons match or exceed silencers against all targets, they cost more, sure but you kill one primaris model and you've made up the difference
• there are a lot of tools to buff these guns, either with rerolls so don't be too discouraged if the numbers look low it's not two hard to get full rerolls on hits and wounds
• also, any buffs affect psybolts stormbolters disproportionally better
• unit death does the opposite if you are running a 10 man squad, just kill the bolters first. 2 dead models makes heavy weapons outperform against infantry

**Edit

Some small findings to add to the list specifically regarding pyschic onslaught

• psilencers are actually not a bad pick up against centurions which I missed and onslaught can get you 6 more wounds 2 cp for the equivalent of 6 moral wounds on a hard to kill target

• one thing left out was the GM nemesis dreadknight as a platform for PO, you can get about at most additional 4 wounds

• speaking of GMNDK big guns never tire gets you about 1 additional wound in general

*so the original idea for this post was came about when I was thinking about leaving my 10 man palidin squad on the board turn 1, buffing them like crazy, and then teleporting them with gate. In this build taking psilencers might not be a bad idea because if you get second turn and you lose 2 or 3 guys, you don't lose most of your fire power and then you fan save you psybolt for turn 2 strike squad.

The cool thing about this idea is that before you jump them all of the following

• sanctuary (4++)

• armour resilience (-1 to wound against them)

• ethereal manipulation (full rerolls to hit)

• astral aim (ignore line of site and cover)

• hammer hand (+1 to wound in fight phase)

• invocation of focus (-1ap for psi and nemesis weapons)litany

• invocation of guidance(ignore any to hit or ballistic skill modifier)litany

And that's not even counting stratagems, so there are plenty of shenanigans you can do, and with being able to get +3 to psychic you can be very consistent, now if only you could make that charge.....

 

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ervdwo/grey_knights_tide_of_convergence_mathhammer/

 

One thing to point out is that he is comparing which weapon is better vs each other. 

 

But since we can only cast one stratagem a turn, it would be worth setting up a list that can utilize both strategies each turn. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by TheMostGood

[Waking Dreamer]

This makes me think it would have been cool if GW gave our Incinerators some kind of buff. They gave most of our unique units and weapon types some kind of boost - except our Incinerators...maybe they were all buffed out giving the cool flamer weapon rules to Salamanders and SoB....

[Corvus Fortis]

u/Xlem1 on reddit did some math as well.

 

 

Thank you, very interesting math!

 

This makes me think about bringing HW paladin unit (4 psycannons or Psilencers) and a 10 man strike squad for psybolt ammunition. The main problem it that you cannot chant litanies every turn, if you are go for DS or Gate. You can chant a litany upon a unit before gate, but on the other turn you won't be able to do so. Or maybe a 10-man purgation squad. IDK, paladins seem just way more versatile to me.

 

This makes me think it would have been cool if GW gave our Incinerators some kind of buff.

 

 

Yeah, this is a shame, that incinerators didn't get anything from the new update. Why didn't they make them Psi-weapons? They literally are! No stratagems for them or psychic powers. Maybe, we will get more, when we get new codex? However, I see a reason to keep a single unit with incinerator in reserves. If your opponent leaves an important squishy hero unprotected, use dynamic insertion and fry it, then finish with bolters. Don't forget the smite too. It is a suicidal mission, but this is the closest thing we have to assassins.

 

Other random thought:

 

- Fury of the Proven will deny -1 to-hit on heavy weapons that paladins carry. Not only it negates moving penalty, but also allows them to receive full reroll from Draigo;

- our characters are terminators too, so you can use -1 damage stratagem on them. And it will only be a single CP. Very effective in the endgame and for protection against snipers. Just be sure that your paladins won't need it more;

- 2x5 man paladin squads can save you some CP. Drop the first unit turn 1 and use -1 damage on him just for 1 CP. Repeat on the next turn with second squad. Even if you will have to use dynamic insertion to protect your heroes, it will still be 3 cp vs 4 to protect full paladin squad for 2 turns. Will only work against armies with not much firepower;

- bring two chaplain vs single one and a librarian. Heavy weapon build will benifit more from it. You will also be very flexible, since you will know 4 out 6 litanies and can tailor against certain armies without losing effectiveness. For example, you can take 5+++ and +3 to deny litany for one chaplain if you face a psychic-heavy army and still have -1 Ap and ignore modifiers on another. 

[Captain Coolpants]

In all honesty. It seems like too much faffing about to get some psi weapons working efficiently. Think its Just competitively better to stick with bolters and gaining cover and extra damage smite.

[Corvus Fortis]

Think its Just competitively better to stick with bolters and gaining cover and extra damage smite.

 

 

But why to talk only about top competitive stuff? Top competitive list for GKs now probably will be strike squad+interceptor limit and a couple of supporting heroes. Bolter down the chaff, smite the elites and vehicles. You'll have enough bodies to hold objectives. Boring.

[Captain Coolpants]

I'm absolutely not a doom and gloom player. In fact im very happy with what we got. It's because yes we had a huge buff. But still pale in comparison to reg Marines and lots of xenos stuff or vehicle spam like astra. A regular non competitive marine list will still be a struggle for us. So we still need to actually try and bring a strong/somewhat competitive list. Just because purgation and purifiers squad has got some extra usage, doesn't mean we'll suddenly be bringing them every game and hope to win.

 

And in most situations, if we're taking a dead model from a power armour squad, we'll likely take the psycannon/psilencer model first because we're expecting combat.

 

I think we'll all definitely try the new combos straight away, try and squeeze in more psycannons, then just every now and again, then probably never.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Corvus Fortis]

But still pale in comparison to reg Marines and lots of xenos stuff or vehicle spam like astra.

 

 

We didn't become tier S or even tier A all of a sudden. The fact is that I had to bring competitive lists to friendly games before and still got wrecked pretty hard. Sometimes (especially after I did realise that GMNDKs are garbage) I managed to win by points, but that's it.

 

Now we can just play friendly games and stay competitive like other tier B armies. By skill and luck we still can win even against top-tier armies, so not every game is auto-lose for us. That's the whole point. No one claims that GK is as strong as vanilla marines or eldar, actually.

 

 

And in most situations, if we're taking a dead model from a power armour squad, we'll likely take the psycannon/psilencer model first because we're expecting combat.

 

 

I don't believe in competitive PA heavy weapons either. They may be good on paladins and that's it. Spamming heavy weapons is only for fun. But who knows, the book is not even out yet, I haven't seen a single battle report in a week. There may be a lot of interactions that are not obvious yet. We don't take purgators seriously now, but all of a sudden they may end up top competitive choice.

 

And yes, close combat for GK is a trap. I'll be never tired of repeating this. In most situations, stormbolters and smites are just better. I stoped counting how often I lost a strike squad, just because lost few models on overwatch and they just didn't hit/wound in close combat. In the end, I could get a lot more from this squad if I just left them in the backfield on an objective. Close combat is for our special characters.

 

My view on the competitive use of ToC is as follows: one paladin squad with 4 psilencers/psycannons, single purgation squad in reserves with psilencers/psycannons, 1 or 2 10-man strike squads with stormbolters. Paladins are good at this because they don't lose close combat capabilities because of heavy weapons. Single purgation squad can drop out of DS, kill something with Psychic Onlsaught and die. 2x10 can drop one after another and kill something with 40 Psybolt SBs. They are just devastating.

 

I also don't think that Tide of Shadows is that competitive either after turn 2. We won't be always be able to enter cover to gain -1 to-hit and +1 to saves is not that good with such low wound count. Better reduce damage by killing enemies off.

[Tralador]

I’m seeing something different, so far I’ve been looking at something along the lines of 75ish power armored guys in either a Brigade or 3 battalions and 4-6 hqs. Totaling about 49 Storm bolters and between 25 and 30 psilencers. Total output against primaris in cover with everyone moving and only half the stormbolters in rapid fire range is 22 Primaris in cover, 48 primaris out of cover, or 29 wounds on a t8/3+ target. 1/3 come from bolters and 2/3 from psilencers.

 

None of this is counting rerolls, bring it down, chaplain, smites, or psibolt ammunition. The primary assumptions are that you can get everyone in range of something, all the psilencers had to move, you run Convergence, and half the people get in rapid fire range.

 

Note, I freely admit you will bleed firepower and rely heavily on a turn 2 hammer strike, but I’m from 5th edition anyway when that was how we rolled

[Waking Dreamer]

Just a question:

 

With the Edict Imperator psychic power, after you have shot your weapons and moved in the psychic phase with say your landraider, can you use the smoke launchers later in that turn?

[Corvus Fortis]

With the Edict Imperator psychic power, after you have shot your weapons and moved in the psychic phase with say your landraider, can you use the smoke launchers later in that turn?

 

 

Yes, you can. FAQ concerning Smoke Launchers state, that you can use it irrespective of any factors as long as you don't shoot in the same phase.

[TheMostGood]

 

With the Edict Imperator psychic power, after you have shot your weapons and moved in the psychic phase with say your landraider, can you use the smoke launchers later in that turn?

 

Yes, you can. FAQ concerning Smoke Launchers state, that you can use it irrespective of any factors as long as you don't shoot in the same phase.

Which means you could move in the movement phase, then use the psychic power to move and shoot and place the tank right on terrain for cover and -1 to hit. Then pop smoke for -2 to hit.

 

1+ armor save, -2 to hit and toughness 8. Yikes.

[Skywrath]

How are GK's looking with PA?