Aren't second founding Marines technically first founding?

[Bryan Blaire]

Irrelevant.

 

Irrelevant.

 

;)

 

Want to keep going?

 

None of this has been addressing what was initially the question in the thread title anyway, which was about Marines - that ended a long time ago in the thread and everyone pretty much ignored that to keep talking about lineage continuity, etc.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Done

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, we know that not all the houses were just shrunk down and left in the same places...

 

Yes, they are called First Founding - that happened at the time of the Second Founding. Prior to that, they were just Legions.

 

Significant difference.

 

Except for the fact that the fluff has never once said that the First Founding occurred simultaneously to the Second Founding, but rather that the First Founding WAS the creation of the Legions that later became Chapters. The fact that they weren't explicitly called the First Founding before that is like arguing WW1 occurred at the same time as WW2, because "before that it wasn't WW1, it was just the Great War".

[Bryan Blaire]

Except for the fact that the fluff has never once said that the First Founding occurred simultaneously to the Second Founding, but rather that the First Founding WAS the creation of the Legions that later became Chapters. The fact that they weren't explicitly called the First Founding before that is like arguing WW1 occurred at the same time as WW2, because "before that it wasn't WW1, it was just the Great War".

Oh, I completely agree that the First Founding occurred long before the Second Founding - not disputing that. It's the Legions.

 

The timing of the founding of the First Founding Chapters is what I disagree with, and no one is going to convince me differently. So if you are trying to convince me I'm wrong, you won't. And I will keep making my points each time someone brings it up. ;)

 

The actions of WW1 are not in dispute - those took place when they historically occurred. Whether it was called WW1 until WW2 doesn't change when the historical actions took place.

 

You know what didn't happen before the Great Crusade? The founding of the first Chapters. Chapter Foundings didn't happen until after the Heresy was over.

 

Very different situations.

 

If you want to convince me otherwise, then cite the date that the first Space Marine Chapter as founded. If that date didn't occur before the Second Founding time frame, then it isn't convincing me to change my argument.

 

Psssst, if it isn't worth it to you, then maybe you want to leave it alone. I'm not asking anyone to change their views, I really don't care when anyone else believes when something fictional occurs - I can read and piece together time lines of events on my own. But if you want to shoot my idea down, come with some actual evidence.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The date of the creation of the First Founding Chapters, per GW, is the date of the creation of the Adeptus Astartes. What you seem to be missing is that GW themselves portray the Blood Angels Chapter as the continuation of the Blood Angels Legion, for example, rather than an entirely different entity. You're asking for proof that doesn't exist, because the Blood Angels Chapter wasn't created on a different date than the Blood Angels Legion. GW sees it as the First Founding created the Blood Angels, and that initially they were a Legion, and later they were reorganized as a Chapter. They're still the same institution.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes and no, per the C:SM 1st of 8th Edition, pg. 8:

"Upon the Codex’s implementation, in an event that would become known as the Second Founding, each of the old Legions became a single Chapter named for its forebear"

 

So, when did the Blood Angels Chapter come into being - the Blood Angels Legion became the Blood Angels Chapter "in an event that would become known as the Second Founding." It is specifically "named for its forebear" - not that it is the exact same institution. Before the Second Founding, the Legions existed, after, Chapters did. Chapters were put into place that were "named for" their forebearers - that implies that they didn't exist prior to.

 

So we have, per GW, the time frame that the Blood Angels Chapter came into being.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, and they also weren't Founded then, just restructured.

 

I mean, if it's a different thing because the organization is different, is the Space Wolf Chapter a different Chapter every time their Companies change? Were the Swords of Haldroth "re-Founded" as the Encarmine Blades?

[Bryan Blaire]

I mean, if it's a different thing because the organization is different, is the Space Wolf Chapter a different Chapter every time their Companies change?

If the actual structure of the organization changes (they go up to 14, or down to 8, etc.) and they are no longer recognized as a Chapter and the change is recorded as such by Terra, then most likely Yes.

 

Has that happened, per GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)?

 

Were the Swords of Haldroth "re-Founded" as the Encarmine Blades?

If their actual structure changed and it was acknowledged as such, then I would say Yes.

 

Is that what happened, per GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)? Maybe it has, I haven't kept close attention on the Blood Angels stuff in recent years.

 

Can Chapters come into being and not be Foundedper GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)? If so, what is that event calledper GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)?

 

Again, I am not saying First Founding Chapters are anything other than that - it is very obvious that is what they are called and they are named for the Legions they came from. I am saying that those Chapters didn't come into being at an event called the First Founding, they came into being when the Second Founding occurred.

[Beta galactosidase]

Since you’re invoking the portrayal by GW, the space marine chapters have always been collectively the Emperor’s legions. Legions was a term first used as a collective noun for the marine chapters as a whole. In M41 it’s reasonable that referring contemporaneously to something called the emperor’s legions would be pretty easily understood as living space marines.

 

To me, any use of first and second founding legions or chapters is subject to historical errors.

 

 

The Legions were pretty clearly replaced by new second founding chapters with the same name. They didn’t have the same offices, they didn’t have super heavy divisions, they didn’t have the distinctions of first company terminators vs regular line company terminators.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I mean, if it's a different thing because the organization is different, is the Space Wolf Chapter a different Chapter every time their Companies change?

If the actual structure of the organization changes (they go up to 14, or down to 8, etc.) and they are no longer recognized as a Chapter and the change is recorded as such by Terra, then most likely Yes.

 

Has that happened, per GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)?

 

Were the Swords of Haldroth "re-Founded" as the Encarmine Blades?

If their actual structure changed and it was acknowledged as such, then I would say Yes.

 

Is that what happenedper GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)?

 

Can Chapters come into being and not be Foundedper GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)? If so, what is that event calledper GW (please be sure to cite your evidence, as I have)?

 

 

Yes, the Sons of Medusa. It's not "called" anything, it's just a new Chapter being created. They got ratified by Imperial edict, though.

 

Do you actually have evidence saying "the Blood Angels Chapter was Founded in the Second Founding"?

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes, the Sons of Medusa. It's not "called" anything, it's just a new Chapter being created. They got ratified by Imperial edict, though.

 

Do you actually have evidence saying "the Blood Angels Chapter was Founded in the Second Founding"?

I've presented my text and reasoning on when the Chapters came into being - per the C:SM 1st of 8th Edition, pg. 8: "Upon the Codex’s implementation, in an event that would become known as the Second Founding, each of the old Legions became a single Chapter named for its forebear" - sure sounds like it happened in the Second Founding to me. All of the other Chapters that came from the Legions were also "Founded" (created) in the Second Founding as well, even though they had previously been part of the Legion as well. The only difference between them is that one of them was selected to be named for its forebearer, and the others were named something else. All of it happened during the same event, the Second Founding.

 

If the Blood Angels Chapter wasn't created, per GW, in the Second Founding event, then when did it happen (again, actual citations are more credible than simple personal assertions)?

 

Sounds like the Sons of Medusa are a Chapter without a Founding, definitely the non-standard way of Chapters being created.

 

Foundings are events when Chapters are created, but not the name of the creation itself. Which itself is why the initial question of "Aren't Marines of the Second Founding actually First Founding?" is answered No - Foundings are the acknowledged events (or dictates by the High Lords, however you want to look at it) in the creation of Chapters, not something that's marks out time for Marines' creation.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Seems this is just coming down into a difference of opinion. The Index Astartes describes it as a "restructuring", so yes, they became a Chapter in the Second Founding, and were a Legion prior to that. I just disagree with the assertion that they were "created" then. They still existed, they were reorganized into a new form. The fact that GW calls them First Founding Chapters, that the very line you're quoting states that they "became" a Chapter, implies continuance, they weren't "replaced by", for example.

[Bryan Blaire]

Seems this is just coming down into a difference of opinion. The Index Astartes describes it as a "restructuring", so yes, they became a Chapter in the Second Founding, and were a Legion prior to that. I just disagree with the assertion that they were "created" then. They still existed, they were reorganized into a new form. The fact that GW calls them First Founding Chapters, that the very line you're quoting states that they "became" a Chapter, implies continuance, they weren't "replaced by", for example.

Then that exact reasoning is true for all of the Second Founding Chapters as well - some of those (most of them, more likely) all existed as some form of subdivision already present in the Legion, so those simply "restructured" into Chapters from the old Legion as well. It happened to all of them at the same time. What's the difference? One of them got named "Blood Angels" per the Legion, another was named "Angels Encarmine," and another the "Flesh Tearers."

 

So what's the difference between the "First Founding" Chapters and the "Second Founding" Chapters? Name, color scheme, etc. Brother Tyler already did a really good job outlining all of the history on this.

 

Yes, it's a difference of opinion - I feel the Legions being "broken up and reorganized" (per the text on pg 8 of the C:SM 8th-1) implies the distinction between a Legion and a Chapter, one is not the other, and that event happened for all Chapters, whether they were named First or Second, occurred at the same time, the Second Founding. Calling the Chapter a First Founding doesn't automatically magically changed the date when that Chapter was created.

 

I would expect that were a Chapter to ever be created as a direct lineage descendant of any of the Traitor Legions, if one were named Iron Warriors, Night Lords, or Thousand Sons, then that Chapter created as such would also be named a "First Founding," even if the creation occurred during the 15th Founding, or 46th - no matter how much that will never happen. :lol:

[Medjugorje]

 

So what's the difference between the "First Founding" Chapters and the "Second Founding" Chapters? Name, color scheme, etc. Brother Tyler already did a really good job outlining all of the history on this.

 

 

Yes... A legion were splitted into a few chapters and one chapter remained the name... its like what I would understand that so far.

 

BTW...A legion were reorganised into chapters ( btw- Ultramarines for example used to have chapters inside their legion)... so they got just outsourced from it.

 

Would be a interesting thing to confront black library authors, is ADB still active here?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well with the Blood Angels Chapter, they could just break out the Wite Out to cover up Legion, and write Chapter over the top. 

[Bryan Blaire]

just break out the Wite Out

I feel like you are giving the Administratum more technological credit than they deserve! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

just break out the Wite Out

I feel like you are giving the Administratum more technological credit than they deserve!

 

 

Well, they are writing the records on a cogitator.

[Kinstryfe]

On a point that's been made, the Legions were comprised of many Chapters as a command division. An argument could be made that the first founding of Chapters was in fact concurrent with the Legion formation and growth, as that was when the Chapter as a unit came into being. The Second Founding then was the dissolution of the Legions and codification of primarily extent Chapters as their own entities. In effect, to use the line of reasoning as it's been used, the Blood Angels Chapter did in fact exist. Many Blood Angels Chapters existed. As of the Second Founding only one Chapter of Blood Angels remained; which would have been extant previously; and many Blood Angels Chapters are dissolved and reformed as Successor Chapters. The dissolution of the status and command structure of the Legion doesn't affect the fact that Chapters already existed. Second Founding Chapters are effectively new entities because they are removed from the command chain of any other chapters; the singular Chapter which is left continues with the extant, but highly truncated, chain of command.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What about zero founding like Warhounds and Dusk Raiders ?

[Brother Tyler]

Those are the First Founding Legions. As you well know, many of them were called by various names before their final names were settled upon (Warhounds=World Eaters; Dusk Raiders=Death Guard).

[Schlitzaf]

Also just to back up Blaine here for the longest time I thought second founding actually referred to the chapters created after the initial division. First Founding referring to Legion Namesake Chapters (Imperial Fists) And their direct or “original” Successor Chapters (Black Templars and Crimson Fist).

 

While second founding I thought initially in reference to the foundings millennia later or otherwise after Heresy passed to myth. Secondly the reason I say this is even more relevant now is how legions themselves are subdivided in Heresy into “Chapters”.

 

Obviously this isn’t the case, but I would posit “First Founding” could or arguably should INCLUDE inner legion “chapters” they were in essence s direct continuation of the chapter components of their parent legions.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think founding has any real bearing on if it’s a chapter or a legion. It’s just the order of founding. If there was the creation of several new space marine organizations like the deathwatch or grey knights, you’d use the term founding. So the first founding might’ve been legions or whatever, but the second founding was just chapters. It has no relevance to the order.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Founding is a recognition event from the Second Founding on - it's the High Lords and other bureaucrats recognizing that there's a bunch of Chapters being created. The recorded First Founding is a historical event of the Founding of the Legions.

 

The term "Second Founding Chapters" is a label given to those Chapters formed from the Legions being broken down - they got different recognized panoply (some of which may have been used internally in the Legion by subdivisions), new - but many related - names, new homeworlds were assigned/recognized, and some had new traditions from the get-go, but carried some Legion traditions formed, and new traditions came about later, etc. The "First Founding Chapters" is a label applied to those Chapters created at the Second Founding that carried on the name, panoply, traditions, and homeworld of their parent Legion that was broken up to make the Chapters.

 

All of these Chapters are officially the same age (First Founding and Second Founding), they were all officially created and recognized within the same larger event of the Second Founding (per GW quoted above), some carry the honorific recognition and the Legion name as a Chapter. All of the Chapters that came into being at the Second Founding were created from the bones of the Legion, the Legion "became" all of their recognized First and Second Founding Chapters at the same time - they were all created through the same process - the breakdown and parcelling out of the Legion components.

 

The event (Founding) these all happened in doesn't matter - as I said before:

I would expect that were a Chapter to ever be created as a direct lineage descendant of any of the Traitor Legions, if one were named Iron Warriors, Night Lords, or Thousand Sons, then that Chapter created as such would also be named a "First Founding," even if the creation occurred during the 15th Founding, or 46th - no matter how much that will never happen. :lol:

[Elzender]

Talking about the Second Founding Chapters that were based on previous existing organizations inside the Legions, I wonder how much these same organizations had to change to adapt to the Codex Chapter structure. After all, some of them might have been pretty specialised companies, and thus they did not fit completely with the Codex structure. I don't think they would make something as silly as taking an armoured company and telling that most of them have to leave their tanks behind because now they have to be assault/devastator squads, but on the other hand, if you distribute that company amongst 5-6 chapters, which one keeps the name, and to what point do they keep their identity? It would be interesting to see a novel around this.

 

Another interesting topic would be what happened with the First companies of each Legion. On one hand, I could see the Primarchs wanting to have their most trusted marines under their direct orders, but on the other, I guess they would see their closest officers as the most adequate to lead the newly formed Chapters. However, it would be specially interesting for the "rank and file" marines in the company, seeing themselves reassigned away from their Primarch might be a hard pill to swallow for some.

 

The Black Templars are probably a very interesting example: the lore basically states that the most zealous members of the Imperial Fists legion were assigned to the BT under the orders of Sigismund. While it would make sense that most of the First Company followed him, as they were previously under his command, I can imagine Dorn wanting to keep some of them around, as they were probably some of his most trusted troops (were the Huscarls part of the First Company or were they a separate entity?). Also, I wonder if some astartes actually had the freedom to choose to which chapter they wanted to be reassigned, according to the new Chapter Master, their inherited traditions, tactical inclinations, etc.

 

Finally, I also wonder what was the Primarchs' real authority over the newly founded chapters, considering that most of them were around for a few years before disappearing/being killed. While the Codex was written by Guilliman precisely to avoid anyone having command over 10.000+ marines, did he and the other Primarchs actually leave their descendant Chapters on their own? And did these Chapters just accept not following their Primarchs anymore?

[jaxom]

Some of those points have been addressed in a various places.

 

 

 

Talking about the Second Founding Chapters that were based on previous existing organizations inside the Legions, I wonder how much these same organizations had to change to adapt to the Codex Chapter structure. After all, some of them might have been pretty specialised companies, and thus they did not fit completely with the Codex structure. I don't think they would make something as silly as taking an armoured company and telling that most of them have to leave their tanks behind because now they have to be assault/devastator squads, but on the other hand, if you distribute that company amongst 5-6 chapters, which one keeps the name, and to what point do they keep their identity? It would be interesting to see a novel around this.

 

Many of the specialist formations did not survive the Heresy and Scouring with enough numbers to still function as they did. In other cases, yes, they were broken up between chapters and did not keep their identity. That's what made the Dark Angels not technically codex compliant because the Deathwing and Ravenwing (and really technically, just the Ravenwing) did not break up to fit the new chapter organizations.

 

 

Another interesting topic would be what happened with the First companies of each Legion. On one hand, I could see the Primarchs wanting to have their most trusted marines under their direct orders, but on the other, I guess they would see their closest officers as the most adequate to lead the newly formed Chapters. However, it would be specially interesting for the "rank and file" marines in the company, seeing themselves reassigned away from their Primarch might be a hard pill to swallow for some.

 

 

 

Dark Imperium and the White Scars supplement talk about this a bit. Guilliman is leading a force made up of Ultramarines and six successor chapters approximately 100 years after the Heresy. I don't know how long the Scouring covers, but this is the Battle of Thessala. By that point, Guilliman notes how few Legion veterans are left and this is among a Legion that wasn't at Terra (23 successors compared to between one and three for most of those Legions). He does keep the few Ultramarine Legion veterans close and the few pre-Scouring veteran Chapter Masters are the ones who tend to be involved in joint operations (Aurora Chapter and Novamarines get name checked). Meanwhile, the White Scars supplement talks about how the break down into chapters didn't change much for the Khan because he always liked his Legion operating relatively independent of him (the wordage was very similar to Alpha Legion descriptions) and if he felt the need, he'd put out the call and see which successors responded (and mind you, there were only four). We also know the Kheshig no longer exist within the White Scars.

 

 

 

The Black Templars are probably a very interesting example: the lore basically states that the most zealous members of the Imperial Fists legion were assigned to the BT under the orders of Sigismund. While it would make sense that most of the First Company followed him, as they were previously under his command, I can imagine Dorn wanting to keep some of them around, as they were probably some of his most trusted troops (were the Huscarls part of the First Company or were they a separate entity?). Also, I wonder if some astartes actually had the freedom to choose to which chapter they wanted to be reassigned, according to the new Chapter Master, their inherited traditions, tactical inclinations, etc.

 

 

 

There's a lot of haziness here regarding how things unfolded (from Index Astartes: Emperor's Fist):

 

Cleansed by their sacrifice [the Iron Cage], the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

 

The New Imperium

 

Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists....

With the adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency [attacking with no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser] was less evident. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars.... Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists.... After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

 

The successor chapters apparently took less time to get organized and combat-ready than the parent First Founding chapter (and it's a little unclear if the Crimson Fists split off before or after the Iron Cage). In the case of the Black Templars, that fits in with the zealous, "let's get to smiting," and possibly not-actually-codex-compliant-please-don't-count-our-fleets attitude. It also matches the developing narrative of a rift between Dorn and Sigismund along with any other Fists who believe in the divinity of the Emperor; Dorn would have no trouble giving them all the boot. Meanwhile, the post-Heresy recruits who weren't at Terra are easily shuffled off into the Crimson Fists and Pollux (who wasn't one of Dorn's go-to cadre) given command.

 

Finally, I also wonder what was the Primarchs' real authority over the newly founded chapters, considering that most of them were around for a few years before disappearing/being killed. While the Codex was written by Guilliman precisely to avoid anyone having command over 10.000+ marines, did he and the other Primarchs actually leave their descendant Chapters on their own? And did these Chapters just accept not following their Primarchs anymore?

 

See above re: Guilliman and the Khan. The original IA article reads as if Dorn just romped around with the Imperial Fists until his death/disappearance. Russ stopped deploying regularly with the Space Wolves and mostly hung around the Fang post-Scouring until he upped and left (Leman Russ novella). The Lion was MIA, Sanguinius was dead, I don't know about Corax, and Vulkan was presumably hanging out with his Legi - oh, wait, single chapter because there were so few Salamanders left.

Edited October 7, 2019 by jaxom