Crimson Fists crazy combos post-FAQ

[Happy-inquisitor]

We now have a FAQ on how to resolve extra hits on a roll of 6 I do think in the case of Crimson Fists this may open up some crazy combos.

 

So the FAQ entry is this:

 

Q. If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)? A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated them.

 

Let us say for example that I have a lone surviving Intercessor from a Liberator Strike Force specialist detachment. In a last desperate fling I use Heroes of Rynn's World stratagem. Having one model left and plenty of CP I go with Bolter Drill as well.  I get lucky and roll a 6 with my Stalker bolt rifle.

 

One hit with a natural 6 generates two hits (Against All Odds)

I now have 2 hits each of which was generated from a roll of a 6 to trigger Heroes of Rynn's World, each generates another hit which I think must also count as being generated from that initial roll of a 6.

I have 4 hits generated from roll of 6 so they all trigger Bolter Drill on a 6+ for 4 more shots.

 

So from one shot I have 4 hits and 4 more shots. Talk about exploding hits!

 

Can anyone see a flaw in that from a RAW perspective. From a fluff perspective those Crimson Fists are really amazingly good with their bolters, on a good roll they can start doing what Marines do in the novels with single marines taking out whole squads.

 

As a side-note there are some tasty combos with close combat that open up if we use this FAQ. An incursor squad with the Whirlwind of rage successor chapter tactic can explode hits very effectively and if you add the Gene-wrought Might stratagem they all automatically wound. 

 

On reflection I think this is awesome and will probably not survive too many FAQ cycles as it may generate some real feel-bad situations.

[GrinNfool]

I think you are misreading whats being said here.  The example cited specifically is talking about OTHER abilities on 6s as the unit it mentions has another effect on a 6.  The FAQ is saying that the exploding 6 result works for both so the other ability that functions on a hit roll of 6 works with the exploding rule.  GW has been very consistent with exploding 6s not allowing other exploding 6s, and abilities that are functionally the same not stacking.  Nothing about the way this FAQ is worded makes me think that has changed as the example is a different ability, that keys off hitting on 6s, and the question was does the new hit count as a 6 or not.  Your reading of this would actually lead to infinite shots.... not 4.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I think you are misreading whats being said here.  The example cited specifically is talking about OTHER abilities on 6s as the unit it mentions has another effect on a 6.  The FAQ is saying that the exploding 6 result works for both so the other ability that functions on a hit roll of 6 works with the exploding rule.  GW has been very consistent with exploding 6s not allowing other exploding 6s, and abilities that are functionally the same not stacking.  Nothing about the way this FAQ is worded makes me think that has changed as the example is a different ability, that keys off hitting on 6s, and the question was does the new hit count as a 6 or not.  Your reading of this would actually lead to infinite shots.... not 4.

 

It would not be infinite  because you have to apply the rules in a sequence and once you declare the sequence it is fixed. So in that example I chose to use Against All Odds first and then Heroes of Rynn's World. The hits from Heroes of Rynn's World cannot possibly loop round to Against all Odds to generate further hits because that rule is already fully resolved on that roll of the dice. There is no chance of infinite hits - there is just a chance of a lot more hits than shots due to the multiplier effect.

[durdle-durdle]

So if I had a squad of crimson fist infiltrators with a Phobos captain nearby giving them target priority, on a 5+ to hit, that’s 2 wounds. If outnumbered, on 4’s. If the stars somehow align and a chaplain is standing nearby to use recitation of focus, it’s on 3’s?

 

Stacking all that seems a bit like wishing, but it seems pretty decent.

 

Regardless, fist infiltrators seem pretty cool now.

[GrinNfool]

Sigh... ok dude, you missed the point completely, and didn't address the key point of what I was talking about.  The example isn't using exploding results into exploding results, you are.  Again.... GW has been extremely consistent with those abilities not stacking.  The point of the FAQ was to say that the extra hit generated by an exploding 6 is also considered a 6.  This lets it function with the marksman's carbine ability with lets a 6 to hit instantly count as a wound.  Meaning a 6 with exploding 6s becomes two wounds.  It also means any other weapon that does something OTHER than exploding 6s functions for the extra hit as well.  Its a nice confirmation, it is NOT a confirmation that exploding 6 rules stack.

[Happy-inquisitor]

So if I had a squad of crimson fist infiltrators with a Phobos captain nearby giving them target priority, on a 5+ to hit, that’s 2 wounds. If outnumbered, on 4’s. If the stars somehow align and a chaplain is standing nearby to use recitation of focus, it’s on 3’s?

 

Stacking all that seems a bit like wishing, but it seems pretty decent.

 

Regardless, fist infiltrators seem pretty cool now.

 

I do not think that works. Each of the rules quite clearly says on a natural roll of a 6 so we cannot use modifiers to spin this out of control. A Chapter Master reroll can be used to fish for 6's but that is about the best I think you can do.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Sigh... ok dude, you missed the point completely, and didn't address the key point of what I was talking about.  The example isn't using exploding results into exploding results, you are.  Again.... GW has been extremely consistent with those abilities not stacking.  The point of the FAQ was to say that the extra hit generated by an exploding 6 is also considered a 6.  This lets it function with the marksman's carbine ability with lets a 6 to hit instantly count as a wound.  Meaning a 6 with exploding 6s becomes two wounds.  It also means any other weapon that does something OTHER than exploding 6s functions for the extra hit as well.  Its a nice confirmation, it is NOT a confirmation that exploding 6 rules stack.

 

Actually I missed the bit where either rule says "this hit cannot generate further hits" - because it is not actually in the rule. I agree that it is quite possible that when they rewrite these rules into our codex supplement they would add that wording - but in the meantime it is simply not there.

 

Bolter Drill says the additional attacks cannot then generate further attacks but neither our chapter tactic nor the stratagem have any equivalent wording. As Bolter Drill works with modifiers and  triggers on 6+ it would be absolutely crazy good without that limitation in a faction with loads of access to stackable +1s to hit. The other two rules I mentioned only work on natural rolls of a 6 so it is very hard to get them to go off other than through plain old luck of the dice; maybe the GW designers think that is enough of a limitation on them which is why they are worded without that additional restriction. Maybe they will change their mind about that at some point in the future, I do not have  a crystal ball so I think I should use the rule as it is written for now.

 

Now if you actually have a rules reference for "rules of different names but equivalent effects do not stack" then please educate me with a specific reference because I honestly am not aware of such a general rule.

[GrinNfool]

I am not going to spend an hour looking through all the FAQs for you, but it doesn't stack.  You're argument is a willfull mis read.  You rolled 1 6, no matter how many rules you have that says a roll of a 6 = 2 hits... it still just = 2 hits.  Having 2 rules that say a roll of a 6 generates 2 hits, doesn't give you 4 hits... the 1 roll of a 6 generates 2 hits.  You can't generates 2 hits more than once off of 1 roll.  No matter how many times you generate 2 hits from 1 roll... its still just 2 hits.

[SkimaskMohawk]

This is actually how it works with the chapter tactic to generate infinite hits.

 

You're bolter is in rapid fire range and makes 2 attacks.

 

• First attack rolls to hit on a 5, rolls to wound on a 2; fails. It's attack sequence has ended.
• Second attack rolls to hit on a 6, rolls to wound on a 1; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a third attack that has already hit 
• Third attack automatically hits, gains the benefits that would apply on a hit roll of 6 by being treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated it, rolls a 1 to wound; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a fourth attack that has already hit.

Etc...

 

All you need is one hit of a 6, and imperial/crimson fists generate infinite hits. It's an issue

[Happy-inquisitor]

This is actually how it works with the chapter tactic to generate infinite hits.

 

You're bolter is in rapid fire range and makes 2 attacks.

 

• First attack rolls to hit on a 5, rolls to wound on a 2; fails. It's attack sequence has ended.
• Second attack rolls to hit on a 6, rolls to wound on a 1; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a third attack that has already hit 
• Third attack automatically hits, gains the benefits that would apply on a hit roll of 6 by being treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated it, rolls a 1 to wound; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a fourth attack that has already hit.

Etc...

 

All you need is one hit of a 6, and imperial/crimson fists generate infinite hits. It's an issue

 

I do not think the sequence is quite that. 

 

1. Bolter shot rolls a 6 to hit.

2. Apply chapter tactic to add another dice to your hit pool showing a 6 (as per FAQ).

3. Apply HoRW stratagem for each hit dice showing a 6, which is currently 2 dice so add 2 more hit dice (also each showing a 6 as per FAQ).

4. You have now finished resolving your hits for that attack and proceed to roll for wounds with all the dice in your hit pool.

5. Subtract failed wound rolls from the result and place in your wound pool.

6. Next bolter shot.

 

You never cycle that particular attack back up the sequence so that attack can never go into an infinite loop. Once you have resolved a rule once on an attack you do not resolve that exact same rule again on that attack - only any subsequent rules also applying to the attack.

 

Obviously we all fast roll but one at a time is how the rules are written so it is often best to go back to that to gain clarity on how a rule should be applied.

 

I could be persuaded that at stage 3 the RAI is that you only add one more dice but really the rules say  that the active player should decide on a sequence for simultaneous rules and apply the rules in that sequence so you finish resolving 2 and then resolve the next rule along according to the result of 2 - which is how I then described point 3. A result of 3 hits would come from applying the rules simultaneously to the single dice result which is not in any sequence.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The sequence is like that. There are no pools like in previous editions; every shot or melee swing is it's own attack and is resolved individually before proceeding to the next one. Fast rolling allows it to be sped up, but the one-at-a-time approach is how it works mechanically.

 

You're making the assertion that the extra hit joins the attack sequence when mechanically it can't. Every additional hit is it's own attack that needs to be fully resolved.

Edited September 2, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Lemondish]

What sequence are you referring to Happy? What page? Edited September 2, 2019 by Lemondish

[Lemondish]

This is actually how it works with the chapter tactic to generate infinite hits.

 

You're bolter is in rapid fire range and makes 2 attacks.

 

• First attack rolls to hit on a 5, rolls to wound on a 2; fails. It's attack sequence has ended.
• Second attack rolls to hit on a 6, rolls to wound on a 1; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a third attack that has already hit
• Third attack automatically hits, gains the benefits that would apply on a hit roll of 6 by being treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated it, rolls a 1 to wound; fails. It's attack sequence has ended. Due to the tactic, you have a fourth attack that has already hit.

Etc...

 

All you need is one hit of a 6, and imperial/crimson fists generate infinite hits. It's an issue

The FAQ mentioned any other benefit. Other implies different from the first, no?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thats definitely a good point, that would shut it down cold.

[Happy-inquisitor]

What sequence are you referring to Happy? What page?

 

The sequence sidebar on P178 - if there are multiple rules to be applied at the same time the active player decides on the sequence. To be honest I do not think the sequence alters the outcome here, there are two different rules of different types which happen to have cumulative effects on the outcome. Whichever way round you resolve them they would be cumulative.

 

And as you note it applies to other benefits so no repeats of the same rule on the attack for infinite silly results.

[Khornate individual]

So glad to see the new GW makes streamlined rules that are easy to understand

[Lemondish]

So glad to see the new GW makes streamlined rules that are easy to understand

Oh, another one of these comments was just what this thread was missing!

[d36williams]

Let's say you have 5 Crimson Fists Intercessors  shooting 11 Cultists; is it not possible to fast roll that? The CF would lose +1 to Hit once there are only 9 cultists, but it seems to really slow game play down and precludes fast rolling

[casb1965]

Does the rule not say "unit" not model, so the unit starts off outnumbered and therefore is outnumbered regardless of subsequent shooting casualties because shooting is "concurrent" not "consecutive".

[Aothaine]

Holy cow! I agree. Infinite roll loops are not going to happen. They are also not supported in the rules. GW is doing a pretty damn good job testing this stuff out. If it is indeed broken it will be FAQed pretty quickly.

[d36williams]

The latest Space Marine Codex FAQ has this

 

Q. A lot of rules apply an effect when resolving an attack, rather than attacks. Does this mean the ability only applies for one single attack? For example, the Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem states ‘Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit, add 1 to the wound roll.’
 

A: The attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time. Therefore the wording of these abilities matches how attacks are resolved in the core rules. The ability would still apply to other attacks made by that unit, so long as it satisfied the requirements laid out in the rule. In the above example, the ability would apply for each attack you make with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit until the end of the phase.

 

The Crimson Fists CT specifies "when a model makes an attack," and I'm not sure of any reference to shooting being assumed to be concurrent although that makes sense to me in the context that one cannot changes the selection of your targets. There are two conflicting issues here in the ruleset -- the inability to change the target of your firepower after declaring implies concurrency and Fast Rolling also casts that illusion, but otherwise the rules push the single attack at a time.

This FAQ from the Imperial Knights had me thinking that when you declare your shooting, you then evaluate if you gain a +1 to hit or not.

 

Q: Imagine a House Vulker model with the Firestorm Protocols Household Tradition with two ranged weapons, which targets two different enemy units, one of which is the closest enemy unit. I resolve the attacks against the closest enemy unit first, re-rolling hit rolls of 1 when doing so. If, as a result of those attacks, that enemy unit is destroyed, and the target of the next weapon is now the closest enemy unit, do I also get to re-roll hit rolls of 1 against that unit?

 

A: No. The ability to re-roll hit rolls of 1 only applies to the enemy unit that is the closest to the firing model at the ‘Choose Target’ step of the Shooting sequence.

 

 

However the Space Marine FAQ just came out, and that FAQ emphasizes that attacks happen one at a time. I don't think the GW rules writers realize how critical fast rolling dice is, and how the Crimson Fists chapter tactic makes that difficult.

[d36williams]

I do have an arguement that says Crimson Fists can still Fast Role, and it comes from the BRB

 

Under "Fast Rolling" in the BRB "In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack)"

 

So, a +1 to Hit is not the same as changing the underlying BS stat. Ergo, we can fast roll but we would lose the +1 to hit if we had a 2nd volley with a different weapon and they fell below the threshhold

[Lemondish]

Holy cow! I agree. Infinite roll loops are not going to happen. They are also not supported in the rules. GW is doing a pretty damn good job testing this stuff out. If it is indeed broken it will be FAQed pretty quickly.

 

They aren't going to happen because any friendly game will be shut down the moment somebody says they get infinite bolter shots and no tournament match will result in a win by anybody pulling this if the opponent requests a chess clock. After all, if one is going to argue RAW here then you can't simply assume infinite shots will delete a unit so you just go ahead and remove it and move on. Assumptions like that aren't RAW. You need to roll those dice. And you need to roll them one at a time because there's no functional way to roll infinite dice for fast rolling. So you roll each attack one at a time until the unit dies. 

 

So I'd like to see somebody try and roll the dice necessary for a single boltgun to kill a Knight with infinite shots while still having the chance to finish any other actions in that turn. 

 

Real talk - I expect we're going to see additional hits from effects like this quickly hit with a similar limitation as FNP stacking was. In this case, it isn't as feasible to actually make use of this cheese, but I think it will eventually be handled in a way that any rule that triggers an extra hits cannot be stacked to cascade this way. I like the interaction of effects that trigger on a 6 (like autowound) interacting with additional hits like this so I do not want to see this ridiculous extra hit snowball remove the interaction the question was meant to address. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm guessing that RAI, this could go 2 ways:

 

Let's say we have a hypothetical weapon/trait that generates an extra hit on 6's, and also deals a mortal wound on to hits of 6 (unmodified in both cases.)

 

Option 1:

You roll an unmodified hit of 6.

It deals an extra mortal wound.

You get another hit for free.

 

Option 2:

You roll an unmodified hit of 6.

It deals an extra mortal wound.

You get another hit for free.

You get a second mortal wound because the free hit was also a 6.

 

What they intended will require a FAQ to really know.

[Lemondish]

I'm still of the mind that, given the question asked about any other effect, the answer truly means any "other" effect (like the Marksman carbines). Since all these extra hit on sixes are essentially the same effect, it doesn't trigger again.

 

Clarification is necessary, but there's limited ways to interpret the rules here rationally ;)