246 replies to this topic

[Grimdark_Garage]

Thanks for the response Volt J

 

For me, the introduction of Primaris changed a lot of things. In regards to the story it caused some change in the structure of a lot of Marine chapters organisation. Though none so much as the Dark Angels.

Prior to the start of 8^th, very little changed in the past 20 years. Not that that was necessarily a bad thing; the background was solid BUT it was 20 years old after all. I for one have gone and come back to the hobby 4 times over the last 2 decades and I found little had moved on and was almost willing a change to come about. So for me, the introduction of the Primaris line was very welcome.  

 

There are big arguments to ask why a force built on bikes and other such fast vehicles would initiate a marine who can’t fit in the saddle but I assume these questions will get answered down the road.

I like the story of the Dark Angels, having initially been extremely cautious of Primaris Marines more so than other chapters, beginning to see the worth in these warriors and starting to break tradition to  find ways to use their skills to help in the hunt for the fallen. TL:DR, Dark Angels are making bigger bikes for their heavy set brethren J

 

But consider the opposite, Primaris units come on board but stay as greenwing and do nothing that a vanilla chapter unit cant (even less if you look at the recent supplements!). It gets a bit boring and this player thinks … “Why cant I have new toys??”

 

From a financial standpoint, new rules means more money for GW. You will always have those that collect for the sake of collecting but others will only part with their hard earned cash for something they see as being a solid addition to their force. I sit firmly in the latter!

With Vanilla marines, it’s an easy sell. With the more exotic chapters it’s a little harder. We rely heavily on our bespoke units to do the business so don’t necessarily see the need to invest in a new wave of multi-factional models when our older models are the backbone of any force. However, give that player a real reason to play these units and you’ll see more sales. Give that player a reason to combine new and old, you sell more.

Sure we may see some shoe-horned in fluff but I would argue even the most ridiculous is at least acceptable in the crazy grimdark world of  the 41^st Millennium.

 

As you say, these past 3 years GW have been in a superb position financially. In my opinion for two reasons.

1. Their embracing of the community and being more transparent
2. Constant updates to their settings, rules and miniature lines

If they take that pedal off of the proverbial gas for a minute, they may see a dip in gains. Go back 10 years and the company was not as profitable if at all!

I remember seeing a case study once (admittedly MANY years ago) on how not to run a company. The study used GW as its example. Nowadays I would imagine a similar case study centred around GW would be more on how you run a very successful company.

[Grimdark_Garage]

More replies came in as I was typing out my lengthy response
 
No it makes zero sense to add infantry to a mobile force…..why not let the force change its structure if it benefits the mounted warriors?
 
And, if the RW are constantly searching for key individuals, they may need to share information with the accompanying scout force, hence, the scout force might need initiating.

Edited by WarriorFish, 09 September 2019 - 02:59 PM.
Format fixed

[Master Sheol]

More replies came in as I was typing out my lengthy response

No it makes zero sense to add infantry to a mobile force…..why not let the force change its structure if it benefits the mounted warriors?

And, if the RW are constantly searching for key individuals, they may need to share information with the accompanying scout force, hence, the scout force might need initiating.

The problem Is
What Is the Need to push a units that doesnt belong to a certain Company into that when you already have It into a Company that can make Better use of It?
One of the distinctive traits of the DA Is their superior tactics and the ability to use different specialised companies to work together to maximize the output
So were Is the tactical Genius of the DA in this horrible BG on WD?

Edited by WarriorFish, 09 September 2019 - 02:59 PM.
Quote format fixed

[Wispy]

yeah i'd rather not wait a half decade, thanks. i can do my own kitbashes until then.

[Grimdark_Garage]

Thansk Master

 

 

What Is the Need to push a units that doesnt belong to a certain Company into that when you already have It into a Company that can make Better use of It?

 

I think this is were i struggle to justify it the most really.

True, if the unit is already in the "Greenwing" why initiate it into the Ravenwing.

 

Like i say, the way i justify it is to better share the information. The marines in question have shown their quality and can be bestowed the trust of their peers enough to be inducted just as a "Legacy" marine would have..... they just cant fit on a bike.

So until they have bikes big enough.... they need to footslog it

 

Of course they could have kept them in reserve until the solution was created i guess rather than induct and be all ...

"Yay youve been inducted into the Ravenwing, heres some secrets, paintbrush and some black paint...

"Whats that? Wheres your bikes.......?...... yeah about that ....... "

[xealito]

An easy approach for GW would be to make use of their existing lore – Terminator armour, being rare and special, was resized and refitted for each wearer. Fitting Primaris marines into it seems like an extension of the existing approach.

Yes. I wish they would just make primaris sized terminators with correct proportions. My hope is the primaris lore all gets retconned anyway when they phase out old marines and they just become new armour marks, but I’d still like terminators at that point.

[Trevak Dal]

Yo it would be funny if the Deathwing Primaris guy is just in his MKX armor painted bone, and the Ravenwing guy was in his normal Intecessor armor painted black. Lmao.

[Master Sheol]

Yo it would be funny if the Deathwing Primaris guy is just in his MKX armor painted bone, and the Ravenwing guy was in his normal Intecessor armor painted black. Lmao.

This is what GW probably did LOL

[jaxom]

 

 

 

 

And now we have deathwing without terminators and ravenwing without bikes. This means they're effectively phasing out, with those two companies becoming standard battle companies featuring optional terminators and optional bikes.

But both of those companies are more than just terminators and bikes. The DW have Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders while the RW have Dark Talons, Dark Shrouds, the plasma one, Jetfighters and Land Speeders. Also it is just as much a rank and title giving more and more insight into the Dark Angels themselves. The Ravenwing know about the Fallen but not exactly who they are whereas the Deathwing know a little more than that.

I don't see it as a phasing out but just adding more stuff to the roster. No reason why Gravis/Repulsor and Inceptor/Phobos couldn't slot in easy into those.

Because the point of the Deathwing is that it is a Terminator company and the point of the Ravenwing is that it is a bike company. They are specializations from the Crusade Era that later became Legions like the White Scars structurally, only the Dark Angels are unique for having 6 of such highly specialized hosts. Deathwing comprised of a bunch of Aggressors is no longer Deathwing, it's just a random Devastator company with a bunch of Gravis armored marines. Likewise Ravenwing with a bunch of Inceptors is no longer Ravenwing, it's just an Assault Company.

Except this isn't new, just a result of poor writing/continuity choices from GW. Anyone with Terminator Honors was a member of the Deathwing, but may not have been an active member of the 1st company; for example, Deathwing Veteran Sergeants for Tactical Squads or Azrael. Having a handful of Primaris inducted into the Deathwing and then continuing to serve with their squad makes more sense than other things to come out of the 8th edition Dark Angels material. :cuss, Masters in 8th edition don't get Inner Circle despite the Deathwing Master (Knight Sergeant) entry stating "each is a Company Master in training". Meanwhile, Lieutenants are glorified Sergeants chosen to get a bit more command experience. Personally, I can circle that square, but as written in the Codex, it's a hot mess.

Sorry but you are wrong
DW is a Terminator only Company (Vet Dreads are for wounded DW members and LR variants are the transports for the squads)
Yes a DW member can be assigned to another role outside the DW and he can wear a different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will wear a TDA again if he Will return in service in the DW

 

 

I think we may be talking past each other. You note that "[DW member] can wear different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will again if he WIll return in service in the DW." I added the emphasis because this the part were I think we actually talking about the same thing while disagreeing. I think this detachment can effectively be permanent, like becoming a Company Master, or temporary like being assigned to a Command Squad (before they where wiped from existence).

 

Here's where I'm coming from:

 

Spoiler

"Important Note: Dark Angels Veteran Sergeants may have been inducted into the Deathwing and can be stubborn at an additional cost of +5 pts." p. 9 3rd ed. Dark Angels codex, emphasis in original text. Azrael, Asmodai, Ezekial - all power armor, all outside 1st Company organization - had "Deathwing: [character name] is a member of the the Deathwing and is therefore stubborn," again, emphasis not mine. Dark Angels Hero (Leader, Master, Grand Master), same deal, unless they were a Master or Grandmaster on a bike in which case, as Master of the Ravenwing, "is not treated as being stubborn. Although a member of the Deathwing, he knows that it is his duty to survive and report back on what he sees and discovers." (p. 6). The fourth edition codex had induction to the Inner Circle followed by elevation to the Deathwing and the two part of a single organization within the chapter (p. 11, 15) while the Inner Circle is called out as separate from the First Company (p. 14); "All Chapters include a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. In the Dark Angels these individuals are known as the Inner Circle." This has stayed a confused mess as portions of the fourth edition codex were copy-pasted into every codex since.

 

I suppose the question is: Does Deathwing refer to the 1st Company as a deployable part of the order of battle; i.e., a Dark Angel is not a member of the Deathwing while not wearing TDA (b/c OB for the Deathwing is always deploy in TDA) or is Deathwing also being used to mean induction to the Inner Circle? The current codex, with Master not getting Inner Circle, seems to imply the latter; they were promoted straight to company level command without being a member of the 1st Company at any point.

 

Anyway, out of time, more later.

[jbaeza94]

I don't see why new rw couldnt fit on a standard bike. Its a silly idea. Lore wise thats probably what they would do.

Terminator armor too. Abbadon was said to be huge before chaos augmentation, and he still wore termie plate. A primaris should be able to fit.

I get that gw wants them to wear new armor, money, new product, all that good stuff. But i dont see too big being a logical in lore reason for them not to be on bikes, land speeders, or terminator plate.

Edited by jbaeza94, 09 September 2019 - 05:56 PM.

[twopounder]

And now we have deathwing without terminators and ravenwing without bikes. This means they're effectively phasing out, with those two companies becoming standard battle companies featuring optional terminators and optional bikes.

But both of those companies are more than just terminators and bikes. The DW have Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders while the RW have Dark Talons, Dark Shrouds, the plasma one, Jetfighters and Land Speeders. Also it is just as much a rank and title giving more and more insight into the Dark Angels themselves. The Ravenwing know about the Fallen but not exactly who they are whereas the Deathwing know a little more than that.

I don't see it as a phasing out but just adding more stuff to the roster. No reason why Gravis/Repulsor and Inceptor/Phobos couldn't slot in easy into those.

Because the point of the Deathwing is that it is a Terminator company and the point of the Ravenwing is that it is a bike company. They are specializations from the Crusade Era that later became Legions like the White Scars structurally, only the Dark Angels are unique for having 6 of such highly specialized hosts. Deathwing comprised of a bunch of Aggressors is no longer Deathwing, it's just a random Devastator company with a bunch of Gravis armored marines. Likewise Ravenwing with a bunch of Inceptors is no longer Ravenwing, it's just an Assault Company.

Except this isn't new, just a result of poor writing/continuity choices from GW. Anyone with Terminator Honors was a member of the Deathwing, but may not have been an active member of the 1st company; for example, Deathwing Veteran Sergeants for Tactical Squads or Azrael. Having a handful of Primaris inducted into the Deathwing and then continuing to serve with their squad makes more sense than other things to come out of the 8th edition Dark Angels material. :cuss, Masters in 8th edition don't get Inner Circle despite the Deathwing Master (Knight Sergeant) entry stating "each is a Company Master in training". Meanwhile, Lieutenants are glorified Sergeants chosen to get a bit more command experience. Personally, I can circle that square, but as written in the Codex, it's a hot mess.

Sorry but you are wrong
DW is a Terminator only Company (Vet Dreads are for wounded DW members and LR variants are the transports for the squads)
Yes a DW member can be assigned to another role outside the DW and he can wear a different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will wear a TDA again if he Will return in service in the DW

I think we may be talking past each other. You note that "[DW member] can wear different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will again if he WIll return in service in the DW." I added the emphasis because this the part were I think we actually talking about the same thing while disagreeing. I think this detachment can effectively be permanent, like becoming a Company Master, or temporary like being assigned to a Command Squad (before they where wiped from existence).

Here's where I'm coming from:

Spoiler

"Important Note: Dark Angels Veteran Sergeants may have been inducted into the Deathwing and can be stubborn at an additional cost of +5 pts." p. 9 3rd ed. Dark Angels codex, emphasis in original text. Azrael, Asmodai, Ezekial - all power armor, all outside 1st Company organization - had "Deathwing: [character name] is a member of the the Deathwing and is therefore stubborn," again, emphasis not mine. Dark Angels Hero (Leader, Master, Grand Master), same deal, unless they were a Master or Grandmaster on a bike in which case, as Master of the Ravenwing, "is not treated as being stubborn. Although a member of the Deathwing, he knows that it is his duty to survive and report back on what he sees and discovers." (p. 6). The fourth edition codex had induction to the Inner Circle followed by elevation to the Deathwing and the two part of a single organization within the chapter (p. 11, 15) while the Inner Circle is called out as separate from the First Company (p. 14); "All Chapters include a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. In the Dark Angels these individuals are known as the Inner Circle." This has stayed a confused mess as portions of the fourth edition codex were copy-pasted into every codex since.

I suppose the question is: Does Deathwing refer to the 1st Company as a deployable part of the order of battle; i.e., a Dark Angel is not a member of the Deathwing while not wearing TDA (b/c OB for the Deathwing is always deploy in TDA) or is Deathwing also being used to mean induction to the Inner Circle? The current codex, with Master not getting Inner Circle, seems to imply the latter; they were promoted straight to company level command without being a member of the 1st Company at any point.

Anyway, out of time, more later.

You are incorrect. A model may be part of the inner circle and not be deathwing. But deathwing are ONLY found in the 1st company. Former members of the deathwing may be company masters or even the chapter master, but a sergeant may have been inducted to the inner circle without going to the deathwing first. They are not the same thing.

[Master Sheol]

And now we have deathwing without terminators and ravenwing without bikes. This means they're effectively phasing out, with those two companies becoming standard battle companies featuring optional terminators and optional bikes.

But both of those companies are more than just terminators and bikes. The DW have Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders while the RW have Dark Talons, Dark Shrouds, the plasma one, Jetfighters and Land Speeders. Also it is just as much a rank and title giving more and more insight into the Dark Angels themselves. The Ravenwing know about the Fallen but not exactly who they are whereas the Deathwing know a little more than that.

I don't see it as a phasing out but just adding more stuff to the roster. No reason why Gravis/Repulsor and Inceptor/Phobos couldn't slot in easy into those.

Because the point of the Deathwing is that it is a Terminator company and the point of the Ravenwing is that it is a bike company. They are specializations from the Crusade Era that later became Legions like the White Scars structurally, only the Dark Angels are unique for having 6 of such highly specialized hosts. Deathwing comprised of a bunch of Aggressors is no longer Deathwing, it's just a random Devastator company with a bunch of Gravis armored marines. Likewise Ravenwing with a bunch of Inceptors is no longer Ravenwing, it's just an Assault Company.

Except this isn't new, just a result of poor writing/continuity choices from GW. Anyone with Terminator Honors was a member of the Deathwing, but may not have been an active member of the 1st company; for example, Deathwing Veteran Sergeants for Tactical Squads or Azrael. Having a handful of Primaris inducted into the Deathwing and then continuing to serve with their squad makes more sense than other things to come out of the 8th edition Dark Angels material. :cuss, Masters in 8th edition don't get Inner Circle despite the Deathwing Master (Knight Sergeant) entry stating "each is a Company Master in training". Meanwhile, Lieutenants are glorified Sergeants chosen to get a bit more command experience. Personally, I can circle that square, but as written in the Codex, it's a hot mess.

Sorry but you are wrong
DW is a Terminator only Company (Vet Dreads are for wounded DW members and LR variants are the transports for the squads)
Yes a DW member can be assigned to another role outside the DW and he can wear a different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will wear a TDA again if he Will return in service in the DW

I think we may be talking past each other. You note that "[DW member] can wear different armour but he remains a member of the DW and he Will again if he WIll return in service in the DW." I added the emphasis because this the part were I think we actually talking about the same thing while disagreeing. I think this detachment can effectively be permanent, like becoming a Company Master, or temporary like being assigned to a Command Squad (before they where wiped from existence).

Here's where I'm coming from:

Spoiler

"Important Note: Dark Angels Veteran Sergeants may have been inducted into the Deathwing and can be stubborn at an additional cost of +5 pts." p. 9 3rd ed. Dark Angels codex, emphasis in original text. Azrael, Asmodai, Ezekial - all power armor, all outside 1st Company organization - had "Deathwing: [character name] is a member of the the Deathwing and is therefore stubborn," again, emphasis not mine. Dark Angels Hero (Leader, Master, Grand Master), same deal, unless they were a Master or Grandmaster on a bike in which case, as Master of the Ravenwing, "is not treated as being stubborn. Although a member of the Deathwing, he knows that it is his duty to survive and report back on what he sees and discovers." (p. 6). The fourth edition codex had induction to the Inner Circle followed by elevation to the Deathwing and the two part of a single organization within the chapter (p. 11, 15) while the Inner Circle is called out as separate from the First Company (p. 14); "All Chapters include a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. In the Dark Angels these individuals are known as the Inner Circle." This has stayed a confused mess as portions of the fourth edition codex were copy-pasted into every codex since.

I suppose the question is: Does Deathwing refer to the 1st Company as a deployable part of the order of battle; i.e., a Dark Angel is not a member of the Deathwing while not wearing TDA (b/c OB for the Deathwing is always deploy in TDA) or is Deathwing also being used to mean induction to the Inner Circle? The current codex, with Master not getting Inner Circle, seems to imply the latter; they were promoted straight to company level command without being a member of the 1st Company at any point.

Anyway, out of time, more later.

You are incorrect. A model may be part of the inner circle and not be deathwing. But deathwing are ONLY found in the 1st company. Former members of the deathwing may be company masters or even the chapter master, but a sergeant may have been inducted to the inner circle without going to the deathwing first. They are not the same thing.

You cannot be in the Inner Circle without having be inducted in DW First
IC Is made by the highest ranks of the chapter and to be that rank in DA you must be inducted in DW first

The progression of knowledge and rank in DA start from scouts and goes on to Company member, Company veteran, deathwing member, and so on up to Inner Circle (i guess the new rank of Lieutenants is above the Company Veterans and ready to be tested for DW but the poor writing of the current codex doesnt give a clear view of that)
RW Is a parallel road that leads the same to DW and librarians are directly inducted into the DW while techmarines never are (in the fluff of 4th edition only the Master of the Techmarines was DW but the was retconned)
Apothecaries and Chaplains are not directly inducted into DW and have to pass their trials too (Chaplains become Interrogators when they are inducted into DW)
All Masters are former DW cause they are selected from DWK ranks but could be part of Inner Circle or not depending on their rank

In the current DA known IC members are
Azrael
Ezekiel
Sapphon
Sammael
Belial
The Master of the Apothecarion should be IC too as other selected Librarians, Masters and Interrogator Chaplains (i don't recall now if Asmodai is part of IC too)

The current codex makes a mess about that cause for example the masters don't have the DW special rules when fluff wise they are all former DW members (and some of them could become part again of the DW if elected as Master of the Company)

Edited by Master Sheol, 10 September 2019 - 03:31 AM.

[Captain Smashy Pants]

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

[Lucerne]

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

There's always the option of having the Primaris kept in the cold in your personal lore? It's not like GW gave a well-stated reason to have them considered remotely trustworthy or useful from an actual in-universe POV.

Edited by Ugolino, 10 September 2019 - 03:59 AM.

[Panzer]

 

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

There's always the option of having the Primaris kept in the cold in your personal lore? It's not like GW gave a well-stated reason to have them considered remotely trustworthy or useful from an actual in-universe POV.

 

 

They also didn't gave any reason why they shouldn't be trustworthy. The initial batch comming from Cawl and were on Crusade with Guilliman and all the other chapter's Primaris, sure. You don't know them at all. But the ones you've created, raised and trained yourself like any regular Marine just with three additional organs? After some initial suspicions because it's something new there shouldn't be any reason to distrust them more than any other new recruit and over time they can prove themselve the same way regular Marines do.

Edited by sfPanzer, 10 September 2019 - 04:02 AM.

[Lucerne]

 

 

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

There's always the option of having the Primaris kept in the cold in your personal lore? It's not like GW gave a well-stated reason to have them considered remotely trustworthy or useful from an actual in-universe POV.

 

 

They also didn't gave any reason why they shouldn't be trustworthy. The initial batch comming from Cawl and were on Crusade with Guilliman and all the other chapter's Primaris, sure. You don't know them at all. But the ones you've created, raised and trained yourself like any regular Marine just with three additional organs? After some initial suspicions because it's something new there shouldn't be any reason to distrust them more than any other new recruit and over time they can prove themselve the same way regular Marines do.

 

Distrust and paranoia? Why, that doesn't sound like the Dark Angels at all!

 

Chalk it up to in-universe distrust and paranoia keeping them from going all-in on incorporating Primaris into the traditional organizations- which fits some of the previous Primaris DA lore- and just have Primaris stay as an outside force made through dubious science and with doubtful loyalty and only kept alive to avoid ruffling feathers. The outermost circle, if you will.

 

Even GW lore notes the Dark Angels are desperate to cull the Martian spies running the procedures, so it's very reasonable to have that aspect played up and Primaris be treated as a begrudging necessity by a Chapter that's more comfortable keeping things in-house. Fits the spirit of the lore every bit as much if not better than Primaris clogging up the main Chapter organization.

Edited by Ugolino, 10 September 2019 - 04:12 AM.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

There's always the option of having the Primaris kept in the cold in your personal lore? It's not like GW gave a well-stated reason to have them considered remotely trustworthy or useful from an actual in-universe POV.

 

 

They also didn't gave any reason why they shouldn't be trustworthy. The initial batch comming from Cawl and were on Crusade with Guilliman and all the other chapter's Primaris, sure. You don't know them at all. But the ones you've created, raised and trained yourself like any regular Marine just with three additional organs? After some initial suspicions because it's something new there shouldn't be any reason to distrust them more than any other new recruit and over time they can prove themselve the same way regular Marines do.

 

Distrust and paranoia? Why, that doesn't sound like the Dark Angels at all!

 

Chalk it up to in-universe distrust and paranoia keeping them from going all-in on incorporating Primaris into the traditional organizations- which fits some of the previous Primaris DA lore- and just have Primaris stay as an outside force made through dubious science and with doubtful loyalty and only kept alive to avoid ruffling feathers. The outermost circle, if you will.

 

Even GW lore notes the Dark Angels are desperate to cull the Martian spies running the procedures, so it's very reasonable to have that aspect played up and Primaris be treated as a begrudging necessity by a Chapter that's more comfortable keeping things in-house. Fits the spirit of the lore every bit as much if not better than Primaris clogging up the main Chapter organization.

 

 

There's a limit to the distrust and paranoia even for DA. It's not like they don't fight together with others who could just as easily shoot them in their back while they focus on the supposed enemy. At some point it's just stupid to stick with your paranoia. It's fine if you want them to be like that in your HEADCANON but it's not on GW to provide you with reasons to change that headcanon of yours.

[Lucerne]

 

 

 

 

GW can rewrite, and really badly at that, the fluff for DW and RW to include gravis and Phobos armour respectively, but that don't mean I have to accept it. IF and ONLY IF, GW decide to produce primaris TDA and bikes/jet bikes and speeders, I'll gladly add some to my DW and RW, otherwise, at least ad far as MY head cannon goes, any primaris inducted into either company will have only been done so by manner of honorific. I will never add any non TDA/dreadnought units to my DW or non biker/speeder/flyer units to my RW.

There's always the option of having the Primaris kept in the cold in your personal lore? It's not like GW gave a well-stated reason to have them considered remotely trustworthy or useful from an actual in-universe POV.

 

 

They also didn't gave any reason why they shouldn't be trustworthy. The initial batch comming from Cawl and were on Crusade with Guilliman and all the other chapter's Primaris, sure. You don't know them at all. But the ones you've created, raised and trained yourself like any regular Marine just with three additional organs? After some initial suspicions because it's something new there shouldn't be any reason to distrust them more than any other new recruit and over time they can prove themselve the same way regular Marines do.

 

Distrust and paranoia? Why, that doesn't sound like the Dark Angels at all!

 

Chalk it up to in-universe distrust and paranoia keeping them from going all-in on incorporating Primaris into the traditional organizations- which fits some of the previous Primaris DA lore- and just have Primaris stay as an outside force made through dubious science and with doubtful loyalty and only kept alive to avoid ruffling feathers. The outermost circle, if you will.

 

Even GW lore notes the Dark Angels are desperate to cull the Martian spies running the procedures, so it's very reasonable to have that aspect played up and Primaris be treated as a begrudging necessity by a Chapter that's more comfortable keeping things in-house. Fits the spirit of the lore every bit as much if not better than Primaris clogging up the main Chapter organization.

 

 

There's a limit to the distrust and paranoia even for DA. It's not like they don't fight together with others who could just as easily shoot them in their back while they focus on the supposed enemy. At some point it's just stupid to stick with your paranoia. It's fine if you want them to be like that in your HEADCANON but it's not on GW to provide you with reasons to change that headcanon of yours.

 

The Land Raider Ares's design process baldly stating they do exactly that says hi- never mind the sources already cited for your benefit.

 

Stupid or not, their paranoia is canonically an influence on how they operate, and while you're welcome to disregard that aspect of their canon portrayal, it's not on anyone else to play along with your "trusting team player" version of the dark angels instead of going with their own, canon-based depictions.

Edited by Ugolino, 10 September 2019 - 04:45 AM.

[Panzer]

You are going extremes here. I never claimed they are "trusting team players". Hyperboles aren't very helpful.
Also if the new canon says they are fine with trusting Primaris then that's the way it is and you are the one disregarding official canon. Stop living in the past.

[Lucerne]

 

 

 

 

It's not like they don't fight together with others who could just as easily shoot them in their back while they focus on the supposed enemy.

 

 

You are going extremes here. I never claimed they are "trusting team players". Hyperboles aren't very helpful.
Also if the new canon says they are fine with trusting Primaris then that's the way it is and you are the one disregarding official canon. Stop living in the past.

Also you do realize the current discussion is about suggestions for a fan who's not interested in the Primaris shoehorning in the current rewrite of the lore, right? If you want to be on-topic, you should be making suggestions for how they can go about that in their own lore, and I rather think "just follow GW's advertising exactly" is not helpful advice in that regard.

Edited by Ugolino, 10 September 2019 - 04:59 AM.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

 

It's not like they don't fight together with others who could just as easily shoot them in their back while they focus on the supposed enemy.

 

 

You are going extremes here. I never claimed they are "trusting team players". Hyperboles aren't very helpful.
Also if the new canon says they are fine with trusting Primaris then that's the way it is and you are the one disregarding official canon. Stop living in the past.

Also you do realize the current discussion is about suggestions for a fan who's not interested in the Primaris shoehorning in the current rewrite of the lore, right? If you want to be on-topic, you should be making suggestions for how they can go about that in their own lore, and I rather think "just follow GW's advertising exactly" is not helpful advice in that regard.

 

 

 All I'm seeing from you is you hating on Primaris and using lots of hyperboles and subjective opinions stated as facts. Something I'm free to correct you on since this is a forum, not your personal blog. If you just want an echo chamber about how bad Primaris are then there are plenty other places out there on the internet.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++Time for a rest break, we can come back once everyone has had time to think about constructive points.+++