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What Traitor Primarch could have won the HH?


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#1
TorvaldTheMild

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Other than Horus, what Primarch do you think could have won the HH and dethroned the Emperor?


Perty: I honestly think he could have, if he could reach Terra, He was a great military mind and he'd orchestrate the war with the siege solely in mind, knowing that to take a castle you need at least 3 times as many troops, I doubt he would have ordered the culling at Istavaan 3, he'd probably have found another way.
Fulgrim: If he wasn't a daemon prince I think he'd have done it, because I don't think Chaos knew they wouldn't have won and were more interested in gathering an army within the materium and to kill the Emperor later on.
Magnus: was an incredible mind but was never known as a great military mind and he was too self involved during the HH
Angron: wouldn't cared as much about winning than killing every single star system in the galaxy between Istavaan and Terra, he'd have never have gotten there lol.
Mortarion: Seeing as he is a dark horse its anyone's guess
Alpharius: another dark horse, but I wouldn't think he'd be great as a leader of vast armies as that's not really his MO, though he does lead a legion and two heads are better than one with Omegon.
Cruze: seeing that he was having his mental breakdown at the time, a definite no.
Lorgar: Probably but he had a massive part in orchastrating the whole HH and failed, though maybe without Horus he could have done it.

 


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 04 September 2019 - 08:32 PM.


#2
MegaVolt87

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You put a lot of if's there, even if they panned out I don't think the traitors had enough real bonds by the time of the Sol campaign to pull through plans. Horus knew he was going round the bend, Perty was the only still relatively dependable and sane brother he could rely on and trust to a degree than everyone else. Plus at that point, seems the others didn't really care to be that involved in strategy or if they were wanted the head seat like Lorgar. 


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#3
Vykes

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Honestly, I don't think any primarch but the King of Hearts could have ever stood a good chance to bring down the Emperor.  None of Horus's 'Broken Monsters' could have likely done it.  But there may have been a few loyalists that stood a chance at least of militarily doing well.  

 

The problem is that Horus had the right blend of every element that was needed to usurp the tyrant of Terra: ambition, charisma, foresight, guile, power, and ability.  He was a master at reading the ebb and flow of fights beyond many of his brothers (by his won admission, Ferrus was his equal in that arena at least).  But many of the failings of the heresy were failings of the composite parts of the legions trying to overthrow the regime.  Dealing with a successful revolution required not only the military ability to defeat the Emperor's armies, but also hold a loose fit confederation of feuding warlords together in a meaningful way.  

 

At this point, I'm fairly convinced that the loss of the traitors at Terra was as much down to a total breakdown of the Renegade coalition rather than any direct fault of Horus Lupercal.  He still had some unspent military power and coordination but it was muddled and quagmired by the corrupting influence of Chaos.  The long war was set in stone the moment Lupercal couldn't capitalize on Istvaan III.  And he couldn't capitalize on it without wiping Angron from his proverbial board.

 

Pert had his problems: Olympia, the cull, his melancholy and headstrong nature.  He was always a required general, and a great logistical leader, but I never considered him a 'leader of men' like someone like Horus, Lorgar, or even Fulgrim could pull off.    

 

But if we have to say who would come closest: Lorgar was probably the only one with the strength of purpose to pull off a revolution.  More than that, I think it would have been the introduction of the Long War in general.  Something closer to the Imperium Nihilus, swamp the Imperium in daemons and ruination for the glory of the Dark Gods and introduce more of the chosen sons to the pantheon.  It would be a religious revolution while Lupercal's started as a political rebellion.  

 

Each of Horus's chief lieutenants were invaluable and required, but I don't think any of the renegades bar Horus Lupercal really stood a chance.  


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#4
Marshal Loss

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Vykes has the right of it: no other Traitor Primarch was capable of doing what Horus did. Putting aside personal qualities for a moment (generalship, charisma, etc) his position as Warmaster left him uniquely positioned to manipulate other Primarchs and set the stage prior to the outbreak of war. Signus, Thramas, Calth - none of these would have been possible without Horus' power and influence.


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#5
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Vykes and Marshal Loss nailed it - only Horus had the ability, authority and sheer ambition to instigate the Heresy. 

 

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#6
TorvaldTheMild

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You put a lot of if's there, even if they panned out I don't think the traitors had enough real bonds by the time of the Sol campaign to pull through plans. Horus knew he was going round the bend, Perty was the only still relatively dependable and sane brother he could rely on and trust to a degree than everyone else. Plus at that point, seems the others didn't really care to be that involved in strategy or if they were wanted the head seat like Lorgar. 

You kinda have to use a lot of ifs if you are being hypothetical.  



#7
TorvaldTheMild

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Honestly, I don't think any primarch but the King of Hearts could have ever stood a good chance to bring down the Emperor.  None of Horus's 'Broken Monsters' could have likely done it.  But there may have been a few loyalists that stood a chance at least of militarily doing well.  

 

The problem is that Horus had the right blend of every element that was needed to usurp the tyrant of Terra: ambition, charisma, foresight, guile, power, and ability.  He was a master at reading the ebb and flow of fights beyond many of his brothers (by his won admission, Ferrus was his equal in that arena at least).  But many of the failings of the heresy were failings of the composite parts of the legions trying to overthrow the regime.  Dealing with a successful revolution required not only the military ability to defeat the Emperor's armies, but also hold a loose fit confederation of feuding warlords together in a meaningful way.  

 

At this point, I'm fairly convinced that the loss of the traitors at Terra was as much down to a total breakdown of the Renegade coalition rather than any direct fault of Horus Lupercal.  He still had some unspent military power and coordination but it was muddled and quagmired by the corrupting influence of Chaos.  The long war was set in stone the moment Lupercal couldn't capitalize on Istvaan III.  And he couldn't capitalize on it without wiping Angron from his proverbial board.

 

Pert had his problems: Olympia, the cull, his melancholy and headstrong nature.  He was always a required general, and a great logistical leader, but I never considered him a 'leader of men' like someone like Horus, Lorgar, or even Fulgrim could pull off.    

 

But if we have to say who would come closest: Lorgar was probably the only one with the strength of purpose to pull off a revolution.  More than that, I think it would have been the introduction of the Long War in general.  Something closer to the Imperium Nihilus, swamp the Imperium in daemons and ruination for the glory of the Dark Gods and introduce more of the chosen sons to the pantheon.  It would be a religious revolution while Lupercal's started as a political rebellion.  

 

Each of Horus's chief lieutenants were invaluable and required, but I don't think any of the renegades bar Horus Lupercal really stood a chance.  

Not true, Magnus was the chaos gods first choice to lead the traitors, that's why he was tested first, when he sold his soul to stop the flesh change, but Magnus was able to resist the Gods until his back was broken by Russ.  There could definitely be another to have done it, at least one that we know of.  Magnus without doubt had the potential.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 05 September 2019 - 03:14 AM.


#8
Vykes

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(CLIP) 

Not true, Magnus was the chaos gods first choice to lead the traitors, that's why he was tested first, when he sold his soul to stop the flesh change, but Magnus was able to resist the Gods until his back was broken by Russ.  There could definitely be another to have done it, at least one that we know of.  Magnus without doubt had the potential.

 

I was always under the distinct impression that Magnus was such a high priority because he was the single greatest threat to the plan, not because he was the plan's greatest champion.  That was still Lupercal. 


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#9
b1soul

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By the time of Terra, the Traitors were sorely lacking force cohesion. I don't think any other Traitor Primarch could keep the Traitor factions as well as Horus.

Frankly, the only unifying leader on par with Horus was on the loyalist side. I speak of the Great Angel.
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#10
MegaVolt87

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Yeah Sangy and Dorn to the Traitors Horus and Perty. All the other traitor primarchs were completely cooked by the time they reached Sol.
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#11
Marshal Rohr

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Oooh, that’s pretty tasty. Is the info about Magnus in a novel, because I don’t remember reading this. I love the idea they sabotaged him early because he was a threat.
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#12
TorvaldTheMild

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(CLIP) 

Not true, Magnus was the chaos gods first choice to lead the traitors, that's why he was tested first, when he sold his soul to stop the flesh change, but Magnus was able to resist the Gods until his back was broken by Russ.  There could definitely be another to have done it, at least one that we know of.  Magnus without doubt had the potential.

 

I was always under the distinct impression that Magnus was such a high priority because he was the single greatest threat to the plan, not because he was the plan's greatest champion.  That was still Lupercal. 

 

He was the first to be considered to lead the war but since he denied the gods he became a threat while he was denying them.


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#13
TorvaldTheMild

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By the time of Terra, the Traitors were sorely lacking force cohesion. I don't think any other Traitor Primarch could keep the Traitor factions as well as Horus.

Frankly, the only unifying leader on par with Horus was on the loyalist side. I speak of the Great Angel.

Horus took a lot of unnecessary detours though and ordered his brothers to fight all over the place , he could have gotten to terra earlier and with less casualties I think.



#14
Marshal Rohr

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By the time of Terra, the Traitors were sorely lacking force cohesion. I don't think any other Traitor Primarch could keep the Traitor factions as well as Horus.

Frankly, the only unifying leader on par with Horus was on the loyalist side. I speak of the Great Angel.


The point of gathering the Legions at Ullanor was to reimpose order and discipline and give them cohesive objectives. Hence why they hold back the corrupted legions until they can be used efficiently.
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#15
Bung

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The problem was, with renouncing their loyality of the Emperor, the traitors lost anything that kept them together. 

There was simply noone filling the hole even Horus couldnt do it and if you dont have anything to be loyal, everything goes down and everyone keeps fighting for themself.

Its something proven by human history already.



#16
TorvaldTheMild

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The problem was, with renouncing their loyality of the Emperor, the traitors lost anything that kept them together. 

There was simply noone filling the hole even Horus couldnt do it and if you dont have anything to be loyal, everything goes down and everyone keeps fighting for themself.

Its something proven by human history already.

That's not true at all, there have been very many rebellions that have won and replaced the old order, throughout history.  


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 07 September 2019 - 04:49 PM.


#17
Vykes

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I don't think that was Bung's point, Torvy my dude.  

 

It's not that rebellions never work: It's that there was no real leadership core and central ideal that held this rebellion together when chaos steered things off the track.  Not even Horus could keep it together before he got himself metaphorically shivved.  Without going into a real-world history, I'd say Bung's more or less right: without a centralized structure and ideal that connects disparate power structures together in a grand campaign, the chance of it coming to fruition against a single ideal is usually pretty low.  And when it does work, it usually fragments pretty hard right after into another struggle.  Which, of course, was something that was forseen for Horus as well even if he won (according to several admittedly Daemonic points of view).

 

Although I don't give much credence or credit to the Emperor, his forces did have a single unified goal: defend Terra and keep the Emperor enthroned.   And they had the individual to do it in the form of the Great Angel. 

 

Post Scriptum: Although I don't think 'renouncing loyalty to God-man' was that critical, it was more the rebellion's breakdown afterward where the goal shifted from "Replace the duplicitous tyrant of Terra with the enlightened Horus" to "BURN DOWN EARFF!" for a good portion of the truly corrupted legions.  I feel a certain sizeable portion of the traitors kinda turned incapable of understanding polysyllabic orders once chaos got involved. 


Edited by Vykes, 07 September 2019 - 05:18 PM.

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#18
okonomiyakimarine

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Take magnus out early and let the rebellion brake down before it replaces the old order with a new system. The traitors could not be allowed to rule for chaos to win.
In the actual question: Perturabo‘s and Lorgar‘s Outlook in things would have been too different, so that is ‚totally hypothetical‘, but such a tandem is the only lead that could do probably do better for reasons well represented in this thread. Fulgrim‘s demon made him incapable to lead the III how could he be a real factor for the preparation for the siege? The other traitor Primarchs all Lack the personality to come even close to lead the heresy.
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#19
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By the time of Terra, the Traitors were sorely lacking force cohesion. I don't think any other Traitor Primarch could keep the Traitor factions as well as Horus.

Frankly, the only unifying leader on par with Horus was on the loyalist side. I speak of the Great Angel.

Horus took a lot of unnecessary detours though and ordered his brothers to fight all over the place , he could have gotten to terra earlier and with less casualties I think.

That's actually contradicted by the text, at least in the FW books. It's in Conquest, whose narrator talks about how breaching the Eternity Gate alone would cost millions of troops.

It becomes necessary for Horus to wage a wider, longer war because of the things that start going wrong at Isstvan III. The Atrocity was meant to be top-secret, only for Garro to blow it wide open. Moreover the Atrocity itself was meant to be a one-two smash and not the gruelling campaign which resulted. Loken, Tarvitz, Torgaddon et al really did hurt the Traitors.

And then we come to Isstvan V. This is a crushing victory, but it's still a battle which Horus was forced into, and forced by one of the most powerful Legions and Primarchs refusing to take his side. That means taking over 100,000 Astartes off Horus' roster of troops along with their fleet and arsenal.

And with Loyalists making contact with Rogal Dorn, it's now guaranteed that breaking Terra will be an even more gruelling prospect than before.

So the "detours" become about building a new "dark empire" to supply the war effort (the Battle of Port Maw and the Siege of Mezoa are on the wikis, and prime examples of these battles) as well as trying to preemptively wipe out any enemies that might try and hit them from their rear.
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#20
TorvaldTheMild

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By the time of Terra, the Traitors were sorely lacking force cohesion. I don't think any other Traitor Primarch could keep the Traitor factions as well as Horus.

Frankly, the only unifying leader on par with Horus was on the loyalist side. I speak of the Great Angel.

Horus took a lot of unnecessary detours though and ordered his brothers to fight all over the place , he could have gotten to terra earlier and with less casualties I think.

That's actually contradicted by the text, at least in the FW books. It's in Conquest, whose narrator talks about how breaching the Eternity Gate alone would cost millions of troops.

It becomes necessary for Horus to wage a wider, longer war because of the things that start going wrong at Isstvan III. The Atrocity was meant to be top-secret, only for Garro to blow it wide open. Moreover the Atrocity itself was meant to be a one-two smash and not the gruelling campaign which resulted. Loken, Tarvitz, Torgaddon et al really did hurt the Traitors.

And then we come to Isstvan V. This is a crushing victory, but it's still a battle which Horus was forced into, and forced by one of the most powerful Legions and Primarchs refusing to take his side. That means taking over 100,000 Astartes off Horus' roster of troops along with their fleet and arsenal.

And with Loyalists making contact with Rogal Dorn, it's now guaranteed that breaking Terra will be an even more gruelling prospect than before.

So the "detours" become about building a new "dark empire" to supply the war effort (the Battle of Port Maw and the Siege of Mezoa are on the wikis, and prime examples of these battles) as well as trying to preemptively wipe out any enemies that might try and hit them from their rear.

 

That's not contradicted in the text.  Horus even admits to Mortarion in path of heaven that he is wasting so much time on dealing with supply lines etc. and he even said that he should have headed towards Terra earlier, but the longer the detours like Molech took even though necessary but still a lot more other detours have exponentially increased the time it would take to get to Terra as new supply lines would have to be created, new regimes and loyalties of conquered systems had to be secured through politics etc.  Horus wasn't forced into Istavaan 5, he planed it before the loyalists were headed his way.  


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 08 September 2019 - 06:17 PM.


#21
bluntblade

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My issue was with your choice of words. He isn't wasting time, he's gaining for the most part, but has been forced to take a more time-consuming approach. That's more down to the acts of the Loyalists and the nature of pan-Galactic war than any flaw on Horus' part. Horus actually uses that subject to make the point to Mortarion that the scale is beyond practically anyone but him to comprehend.

I'm sceptical about your point re Isstvan V. If Horus planned it in advance then he intended for the Loyalists to find out, and thereby lose his advantage of surprise. I suspect that we'd have instead seen the Traitors (at least the majority) use the element of surprise to keep the initiative.

Edited by bluntblade, 08 September 2019 - 06:23 PM.

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#22
TorvaldTheMild

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My issue was with your choice of words. He isn't wasting time, he's gaining for the most part, but has been forced to take a more time-consuming approach. That's more down to the acts of the Loyalists and the nature of pan-Galactic war than any flaw on Horus' part. Horus actually uses that subject to make the point to Mortarion that the scale is beyond practically anyone but him to comprehend.

I'm sceptical about your point re Isstvan V. If Horus planned it in advance then he intended for the Loyalists to find out, and thereby lose his advantage of surprise. I suspect that we'd have instead seen the Traitors (at least the majority) use the element of surprise to keep the initiative.

Not my choice of words; Horus'.  I'll check the Istavaan 5 thing, hang on.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 08 September 2019 - 06:44 PM.


#23
Bung

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The problem was, with renouncing their loyality of the Emperor, the traitors lost anything that kept them together. 

There was simply noone filling the hole even Horus couldnt do it and if you dont have anything to be loyal, everything goes down and everyone keeps fighting for themself.

Its something proven by human history already.

That's not true at all, there have been very many rebellions that have won and replaced the old order, throughout history.  

 

 

Yes, but what keeps Horus rebellion together? Simple. Its Horus with his personality and the vows of loyality to him and not to a greater ideal.

I think the best novel to show that problems is Slaves to Darkness when Horus isnt able to lead and Maloghurst tries to keep it all together.

No other Primarch would have the respect and personality to keep it together and going, as all were going after their own goals and didnt trust each other much.

All of them had to much or to big flaws in their personality. Most of them rueld alot through fear and that insoires no loyality. 


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#24
TorvaldTheMild

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The problem was, with renouncing their loyality of the Emperor, the traitors lost anything that kept them together. 

There was simply noone filling the hole even Horus couldnt do it and if you dont have anything to be loyal, everything goes down and everyone keeps fighting for themself.

Its something proven by human history already.

That's not true at all, there have been very many rebellions that have won and replaced the old order, throughout history.  

 

 

Yes, but what keeps Horus rebellion together? Simple. Its Horus with his personality and the vows of loyality to him and not to a greater ideal.

I think the best novel to show that problems is Slaves to Darkness when Horus isnt able to lead and Maloghurst tries to keep it all together.

No other Primarch would have the respect and personality to keep it together and going, as all were going after their own goals and didnt trust each other much.

All of them had to much or to big flaws in their personality. Most of them rueld alot through fear and that insoires no loyality. 

 

Horus didn't keep it together though.  Angron did what he wanted as did Fulgrim, when Fulgrim became a daemon prince Horus could no longer control him at all, admitted it to Mortarion, saying he couldn't control him or rely on him anymore.  Even at the siege of Terror the III legion went off to sate their appetites killing the populace.  Alpharius nor Cruze could be heeled, even Lorgar did what he wanted, Horus wanted Sanguinius turned but Lorgar said that would never happen and went to Nuceria and told Erebus not to try and make that happen. After Molech Horus couldn't even count of Perty, he said he could only count on Mortarion.  That is why he tried so badly to get Loken to turn on Molech, he knew all he had were broken souls.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 08 September 2019 - 09:21 PM.

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#25
TorvaldTheMild

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My issue was with your choice of words. He isn't wasting time, he's gaining for the most part, but has been forced to take a more time-consuming approach. That's more down to the acts of the Loyalists and the nature of pan-Galactic war than any flaw on Horus' part. Horus actually uses that subject to make the point to Mortarion that the scale is beyond practically anyone but him to comprehend.

I'm sceptical about your point re Isstvan V. If Horus planned it in advance then he intended for the Loyalists to find out, and thereby lose his advantage of surprise. I suspect that we'd have instead seen the Traitors (at least the majority) use the element of surprise to keep the initiative.

"'It attempted to break through our blockade to reach the system jump point,’ 'You say "attempted",' noted Horus. 'It did not succeed?' Maloghurst paused before answering. 'Several of our ships intercepted the Eisenstein and heavily damaged it,’ 'But they did not destroy it?' 'No, my lord, before they could do so, the Eisen-stein's commander made an emergency jump into the warp, but the ship was so badly damaged that we do not believe it could survive such a translation,’ 'If it does, then the whole timetable of my designs will be disrupted,’ 'The warp is dark, Warmaster. It is unlikely that-' 'Do not be so sure of yourself, Maloghurst,’ warned Horus. The Isstvan V phase is critical to our success and if the Eisenstein carries word of our plans to Terra, then all may be lost.' 'Perhaps, Warmaster, if we were to withdraw from the Choral City and blockade the planet, we could ensure that the Isstvan V phase proceeds as planned,’"  -   Galaxy in Flames

Horus planned the loyalists would come, but in his own time.  He didn't want them knowing before he was ready.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 08 September 2019 - 09:18 PM.





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