595 replies to this topic

[Dark Shepherd]

If it can be used multiple times well thats a downside of not being WAAC in playtesting (and not using forgeworld or even command point farms)

[helterskelter]

What's Shrike's costs in the reviews? I don't want to watch and spoil the whole book, but I'm curious about his cost for list building. Thanks!

He's 130

[Lemondish]

I fundamentally disagree with this silly revision of what the word "after" means. Once again the usual power gaming crowd (you know who you are) bring us inexplicably and maddeningly to a moment in time where GW will have to clarify the definition and intent of a simple, understood English word. I shudder to imagine the work wasted trying to find the right way to word these things so that certain types doesn't try to do things like run a full army of character dreads. Rewriting the meaning of the word for this specific rule is intellectually dishonest. I'll tell you why.

Dozens of rules trigger using the word after and they're all immediate. So I ask - what is the argument that is being made here in support of repeating this Stratagem? That actions that require they be triggered after an event can be made at any time after or repeated as often as you want, irrespective of any or all intervening actions? So I can delay removing my slain overcharged plasma casualty until after the following turn. It's after I resolved the hit, isn't it? If intervening actions don't matter for this Stratagem, then why would they matter elsewhere?

Turn 5 is still after my model rolled a 1 with gets hot, but if after means any time after irrespective of all other actions, then by this position I could delay removing the casualty. That's absurd! To argue you can make any number of actions in between and still meet the requirements to repeat this Stratagem requires a level of mental gymnastics that would certainly win a podium position.

Edited by Lemondish, 14 September 2019 - 04:47 PM.

[Chrysaor the Giant]

Someone made a little Doc summarizing all the rules for the IH Supplement. A couple things are missing, but it'll work until the book comes out:

 

IH Rules Summary

 

Unrelated side-note: really sad to be seeing the mangled, poorly re-hashed version of their fluff get spread around and entrenched-as-canon even more, especially since they're clearly about to be the hot new toy for a month or more and a lot of people are going to end up owning this supplement. Makes me retch a little.

[Spinsanity]

I fundamentally disagree with your ridiculous revision of what the word "after".

I’m just curious. Are you saying that only B comes after A in the alphabet? That someone who finishes a race in 3rd place did not arrive after the winner?

I understand that this is poorly written (a clear - and I’d say good - ruleset would make a clear distinction between after and immediately after), but your pretending this is a new interpretation of a commonly known word is a bit preposterous. Reading after as meaning exclusively immediately after IS a revision of the word’s meaning, not the other way around.

[War Angel]

I believe he is saying that B must come after A, and not after C. Nor can B happen after B, but must only be after A

[Plasmablasts]

Speaking with no vested interest in the interpretation of these rules, I agree that “after” does not exclusively mean “immediately after”. If someone told me that something will happen after Christmas, I don’t infer that it must happen on Boxing Day. So, the stratagem could be used at any point following selection of your Warlord, as long as the battle hasn’t started.

My interpretation of course, and an FAQ might resolve the issue differently.

[Lord Nord]

 

What limits it is that you only get to do it after selecting a Warlord, which you only get to do once.

So it's once. Pretty solid argument actually

 

 

If that's the case, then why do they feel the need to clarify a single use for so many other stratagems that likewise take place after a warlord is selected?

 

Hell, just look at the last stratagem in the section for an example. Clearly when they intend a single use, they specify a single use.

[Ishagu]

I WISH it was only usable once, but the way it's worded indicates otherwise, especially as we already have established examples of similar stratagems activated befire turn 1.

[Raven1]

I WISH it was only usable once, but the way it's worded indicates otherwise, especially as we already have established examples of similar stratagems activated befire turn 1.

If non targetable dreads or FW dreads get too out of hand, I'm sure it will be fixed by GW.

[Lord Nord]

Is eight counter-examples enough?

 

Hero of the Chapter (Space Marines)

Exemplar of the Chapter (Ultramarines)

Tempered by Wisdom (White Scars)

Master of the Trifold Path (Raven Guard)

Honoured by Macragge (Ultramarines successor chapter)

Gift of the Khans (White Scars successor chapter)

Token of Brotherhood (Raven Guard successor chapter)

Bequeathed by the Iron Council (Iron Hands successor chapter)

 

All of them take place after selecting a warlord and all of them still specify a single use.

 

After just means after. It doesn't mean "once after."

Edited by Lord Nord, 14 September 2019 - 05:49 PM.

[Ishagu]

I WISH it was only usable once, but the way it's worded indicates otherwise, especially as we already have established examples of similar stratagems activated befire turn 1.

If non targetable dreads or FW dreads get too out of hand, I'm sure it will be fixed by GW.

It's already out of hand. Imagine 12 Las Cannons blasting away at you all game, and you can't fire back at them at all

Edited by Ishagu, 14 September 2019 - 05:50 PM.

[coldfyre]

Lemondish is confusing terms and getting angry at other people because of it. Seriously, it's off putting that i and others are being labelled power gamers or WAAC just because we aren't turning off our brains to support his wishful interpretation of a single word. I haven't played a game of 40k since 2006 or 2007, but I understand how to read.

"After" doesn't automatically mean "immediately after" or "when something happens."

After means after.

[Mr4Minutes]

The last page here has gotten a little out of hand lol.

No new FAQ is needed because all these rules have been covered already. The wordings for the new stratagems are not new and have existed in other codexes.

Making FW dreds characters is not OP on the basis of them being untargetable because they all have over 10 wounds. Ergo they are targetable per the character rule. Now, +1 A may have a good use on them, and I don’t know all the IH relics so there may be an OP option in there, but it’s not caused by them just being characters.

Lemondish I normally agree with you, but I think you’re wrong with your interpretation. There’s no official order of operations for before the battle begins. When the rule says after warlord selection and before the battle begins it means exactly that. After you’ve selected your warlord you have until the battle begins to use whatever stratagem you want per the BRB FAQ. If there nothing in the stratagem itself that says it can be only used once, you can use it as many times as you can afford.

[Ishagu]

Forgeworld Mortis Dreads have 8 wounds...

[Chrysaor the Giant]

You can't even give the dreads relics, per the SM Codex. Where is this really becoming such an incredible issue? The interpretation is pretty plain and yeah, just because someone reads carefully doesn't make them any sort of Undesirable, haha. And even given it's possibilities....

Probably the best choice for it is the FW Mortis Dreadnought. 4 Lascannon shots per turn hitting on 2+ with re-rolls, and only 8 wounds so untargetable.

That guy is like 150pts and will have match-ups where he is absolutely not useful at all. Want to spend almost 500pts + 3CP on untergetable Lascannon platforms against Genesetealer Cult or Orks? Have fun.

 

If you want to use it on an Ironclad, why not take a Chaplain Dread and save yourself a CP? And get Litanies to boot?

 

Use on something larger and you're just getting shot at anyway so it isn't huge. The biggest benefit to all the dread types with 10+ Wounds comes with a Warlord Trait (which, well, read the strat!) or with the Stratagem to dump Wounds off on nearby infantry. So what Infantry are you going to use for that? Take 10 Scouts and just sit them next to your Leviathan? He's over 400pts now, plus an incredible CP sink. Frankly, that sounds like a very bad expenditure of resources. Your opponent can just elect to shoot something else, which they probably will be doing without this Character trick, anyway.

Iron Hands are undoubtedly and unfortunately going to be the most obvious and straightforward First Founding supplement to use with Marines and get good results. Put your big cool models on the board and shoot stuff and hopefully your opponent can't take the heat. Imperial Knights Lite, maybe (hopefully some more nuanced stuff floats to the top of the mud pit). But Raven Guard look very good, and maybe even better overall; they'll just have an actual learning curve with all their movement tricks. Ultramarines are also very well done, and don't discount D2 chainswords for White Scars, that stuff's scary.

[Wispy]

From experience in lots of running Bjorn the Fellhanded, Venerable Dreadnoughts who are characters are :cussing amazing.

Edited by Wispy, 14 September 2019 - 06:54 PM.

[Mr4Minutes]

Forgeworld Mortis Dreads have 8 wounds...

Ahh, so I see. I only have rules for the contempor version, so I did not have the Mortis stat line.

[Juggernut]

Is there really an argument going on regarding what the word after means?

 

Never change, fandom.

[Marshal Rohr]

The studio has a style guide. Unless it says something specifically it’s probably not intended.

[helterskelter]

All the stuff appears to be on 1d4chan.

Iron Hands are solid.

Raven Guard can potentially strike really fast, not including phobos/scouts, between some warlord traits/stratagem/relic you can get shrike, a smoosh captain, and 2 other units, plus anything you might choose to drop pod veeery close before t1, being able to advance and charge some of it, re-roll charge others within range of shrike. Add your invictor and stabby phobos. That's far too much too close. Oh and the deny overwatch warlord trait on a second hq if you yeet him up with the psyker power to get close to shrike for his reroll to charge, then you don't get shot up on the way in.

[Ishagu]

Raven Guard Centurions are one of the best units in the codex now.

Teleporting them in literally fixes any problem they have.

[Triszin]

Raven Guard Centurions are one of the best units in the codex now.

Teleporting them in literally fixes any problem they have.

you know....

 

Just throw a giant jet pack on them and they would be rad flying little baby knights

[wildweasel]

The point of March of the Ancients saying it’s used after selecting your Warlord is so you can’t use it to make a Dreadnought a Character and then choose it as your Warlord. That’s it.