595 replies to this topic

[Morticon]

thankies!

[Captain Smashy Pants]

While I could see this being abused by some bag, its clearly the intention of the games designers that you be able to use the stratagem more than once, or else it would state that you can only use it once. Using it on three dreads is no more overpowered than me taking three chaplain dreads, or three librarian dreads, which I wouldn't do anayway because I'm not a bag., sure you could take it on three, dreadnoughts, then three venerable dreads, then three mortis dreads followed by three ironclads, but you're only gonna pull that so many times before no one at the club or FLGS wants to play you anymore. Now if you are a WAAC player, one would hope you'd have WAAC gaming buddies you 'train' with for tournaments, which is fine because you both know what you're getting into. Basically gamers need to remember the social contract that we enter into with our opponents, and make sure if we are gonna play a game, we're on the same page. Simple.

Edited by Captain Smashy Pants, 16 September 2019 - 07:16 AM.

[Lemondish]

While I could see this being abused by some bag, its clearly the intention of the games designers that you be able to use the stratagem more than once, or else it would state that you can only use it once. Using it on three dreads is no more overpowered than me taking three chaplain dreads, or three librarian dreads, which I wouldn't do anayway because I'm not a bag., sure you could take it on three, dreadnoughts, then three venerable dreads, then three mortis dreads followed by three ironclads, but you're only gonna pull that so many times before no one at the club or FLGS wants to play you anymore. Now if you are a WAAC player, one would hope you'd have WAAC gaming buddies you 'train' with for tournaments, which is fine because you both know what you're getting into. Basically gamers need to remember the social contract that we enter into with our opponents, and make sure if we are gonna play a game, we're on the same page. Simple.

That example won't happen. There's no way an IH list would commit 9 CP to character Dreads before the game even starts. I don't think many of these lists will have more than 9 CP to play with to begin with.

And if they do decide to spend that much CP, then I welcome it.

Rumour has it the Fist character will be Captain of the 3rd Company, Tor Garadon.

Edited by Lemondish, 16 September 2019 - 09:10 AM.

[Biscuittzz]

Considering that Shrike can get whipped easily by a Smash Captain which are DIRT CHEAP compared to other HQ's, if anything 130 point is too expensive given his relative lack of utility outside of buffing Vanguard Vet suicide squads.

 

And why would any sensible RG player send Shrike up against a smash captain though? Shrike could single handedly rip apart an opponents backfield if left unnoticed. 

 

He plays the exact same way Corax plays in 30k, targeting troops and backfield units. We don't shoot our commanders out of cannons at the enemy. We leave that for lesser Chapters.

[chapter master 454]

 

While I could see this being abused by some bag, its clearly the intention of the games designers that you be able to use the stratagem more than once, or else it would state that you can only use it once. Using it on three dreads is no more overpowered than me taking three chaplain dreads, or three librarian dreads, which I wouldn't do anayway because I'm not a bag., sure you could take it on three, dreadnoughts, then three venerable dreads, then three mortis dreads followed by three ironclads, but you're only gonna pull that so many times before no one at the club or FLGS wants to play you anymore. Now if you are a WAAC player, one would hope you'd have WAAC gaming buddies you 'train' with for tournaments, which is fine because you both know what you're getting into. Basically gamers need to remember the social contract that we enter into with our opponents, and make sure if we are gonna play a game, we're on the same page. Simple.

That example won't happen. There's no way an IH list would commit 9 CP to character Dreads before the game even starts. I don't think many of these lists will have more than 9 CP to play with to begin with.

And if they do decide to spend that much CP, then I welcome it.

Rumour has it the Fist character will be Captain of the 3rd Company, Tor Garadon.

 

 

Double Battalion is possible however you will be left with only 4 CP left which, agreed isn't a good idea especially when 3 of those dreads are just vanilla dreads. Likely to see more of a 6 dread load-out running around imo, 3 ironclads and 3 vens. Pair that with a healthy dose of intercessor body bags and some repair crews and you should have a fairly hard to kill set of dreads.

[Lemondish]

While I could see this being abused by some bag, its clearly the intention of the games designers that you be able to use the stratagem more than once, or else it would state that you can only use it once. Using it on three dreads is no more overpowered than me taking three chaplain dreads, or three librarian dreads, which I wouldn't do anayway because I'm not a bag., sure you could take it on three, dreadnoughts, then three venerable dreads, then three mortis dreads followed by three ironclads, but you're only gonna pull that so many times before no one at the club or FLGS wants to play you anymore. Now if you are a WAAC player, one would hope you'd have WAAC gaming buddies you 'train' with for tournaments, which is fine because you both know what you're getting into. Basically gamers need to remember the social contract that we enter into with our opponents, and make sure if we are gonna play a game, we're on the same page. Simple.

That example won't happen. There's no way an IH list would commit 9 CP to character Dreads before the game even starts. I don't think many of these lists will have more than 9 CP to play with to begin with.

And if they do decide to spend that much CP, then I welcome it.

Rumour has it the Fist character will be Captain of the 3rd Company, Tor Garadon.

Double Battalion is possible however you will be left with only 4 CP left which, agreed isn't a good idea especially when 3 of those dreads are just vanilla dreads. Likely to see more of a 6 dread load-out running around imo, 3 ironclads and 3 vens. Pair that with a healthy dose of intercessor body bags and some repair crews and you should have a fairly hard to kill set of dreads.

Don't really need to kill them if they're in a murder ball like that. Just wrap them up.

I think folks will find the solutions for Iron Hands will come fast

[chapter master 454]

Personally I have grav-turions which would likely mince such silliness fast anyway.

 

The main thing is right now it is all theory craft. In Theory this whole dreadnought thing seems over the top and unstoppable but in reality would have some issues. First is dreadnoughts have always been good however they main reason is they are great support and to some extent decent melee hulks. However part of that was their ability to turn into a captain for a phase which helped spread the re-rolls around which was a big deal.

However when you take them as your primary damage dealers, they are high quality with low quantity. Sure you can go assault cannons and storm bolters on venerables or opt for hurricane bolters on ironclads but not exactly efficient and however you equip them, they are rapidly pigeon-holed into one role (ether anti-infantry or anti-tank). This means they are still in need of support from other elements to cover this.

The big concern is the sudden and rapid loss of the character benefit when everything you brought to block with is dead. Because of being characters themselves, the dreads cannot shield the techmarines or any other HQ support backing them and so could rapidly lose any boosts they are gaining.

Another issue is that despite what others may say: 6" ain't quick. You can advance but now you aren't firing, a lot of good that dev doctrine did ya! Sure Ironclads can advance but...wait...they got out in front and now are dead because they forgot to keep with the group. It very much is an army that wants to roll up the board and nothing else. You could establish firing lines further back with venerables but then you are asking for deep strike to come and mess you up or for faster units to flank and spank.

 

Iron Hands have a lot of promise but even within myself I feel torn because while the boost to toughness is great, you have to build into it. You can't just casually slap iron hand on it and expect it to work.

It is again a case that so far all the chapters have been fairly well written and are great because they represent the chapters well. Ultramarines seem the most commonly applicable to all lists but that comes from their nature flex, they don't do anything like a master but they follow the "jack of all trades, master of none but better than a master of one". White Scars show their power in melee and getting close and personal and doing so very quickly. Raven Guard are all about eroding the support then kicking them out when weakened, Iron Hands however are more of a "I'm the Juggernaut, scum!" in that they may not be mobile but by the Emperor we just did more damage to the terrain than the army!

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Ok guys I have a insoluble question for you. 

 

In the Iron hands supplement, there is this "For Istvaan" stratagem to boost again Night lords, Alpha legion, Iron warriors and Word Bearers. 

 

I Can understand why there isnt Black legion (they didnt exist at this time). 

 

But why no Death Guard, World eater or Emperor's children.

 

Furthemore Emperor's children are the dude who killed they primarch ! 

[Marshal Loss]

Ok guys I have a insoluble question for you. 

 

In the Iron hands supplement, there is this "For Istvaan" stratagem to boost again Night lords, Alpha legion, Iron warriors and Word Bearers. 

 

I Can understand why there isnt Black legion (they didnt exist at this time). 

 

But why no Death Guard, World eater or Emperor's children.

 

Furthemore Emperor's children are the dude who killed they primarch ! 

 

Because that stratagem in particular is referring to the actual betrayal that took place at Isstvan - where the NL/AL/IW/WB unexpectedly surrounded and destroyed the Loyalists instead of providing reinforcement. You'll note that there is a stratagem that has a bonus effect when IH fight against EC, the name of said stratagem playing off Ferrus' duel with Fulgrim ("The Gorgon's Rage"), so they've covered all bases here. DG, WE and SoH/BL aren't particularly notable in comparison and so aren't included.

Edited by Marshal Loss, 16 September 2019 - 07:00 PM.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Because they were betrayed by those specific legions and not the sons of horus, death guard, world eaters or emperor's children?

[thewarriorhunter]

RG have the same strat, and I assume we'll see the same one for the Salamanders since they were the other Legion that was betrayed at that event.

[Kain Mor]

What does the Istvaan strat actually do?

[Panzer]

 

Considering that Shrike can get whipped easily by a Smash Captain which are DIRT CHEAP compared to other HQ's, if anything 130 point is too expensive given his relative lack of utility outside of buffing Vanguard Vet suicide squads.

 

And why would any sensible RG player send Shrike up against a smash captain though? Shrike could single handedly rip apart an opponents backfield if left unnoticed. 

 

He plays the exact same way Corax plays in 30k, targeting troops and backfield units. We don't shoot our commanders out of cannons at the enemy. We leave that for lesser Chapters.

 

 

I don't think it's about sending Shrike against a Smash Captain but rather a Smash Captain being able to do the same job for less points (just with a hammer instead of claws obviously) hence why Shrike shouldn't be this expensive.

[Bluflash]

I don't think you should be using Shrike as an anti-knight suicide missile. Getting the Chapter Master and charge buffs means he's valuable as a force multiplier. He will chew through back-line units, and with 14" move has be ability to strike across the board and be where he's most valuable.

 

He's about the same price, saves you 2CP, and has a very different role. 

[Juggernut]

What does the Istvaan strat actually do?

 

 

Use in fight phase when a friendly iron hands unit is chosen to fight  Until end of phase, when resolving a melee weapon attack used against word bearers, iron warriors, night lords, and alpha legion, re-roll hits.

[Biscuittzz]

 

 

Considering that Shrike can get whipped easily by a Smash Captain which are DIRT CHEAP compared to other HQ's, if anything 130 point is too expensive given his relative lack of utility outside of buffing Vanguard Vet suicide squads.

 

And why would any sensible RG player send Shrike up against a smash captain though? Shrike could single handedly rip apart an opponents backfield if left unnoticed. 

 

He plays the exact same way Corax plays in 30k, targeting troops and backfield units. We don't shoot our commanders out of cannons at the enemy. We leave that for lesser Chapters.

 

 

I don't think it's about sending Shrike against a Smash Captain but rather a Smash Captain being able to do the same job for less points (just with a hammer instead of claws obviously) hence why Shrike shouldn't be this expensive.

 

 

But they won't be doing the same job though? Shrike will be mulching through troops and soft characters while you'll want your smash captain to go for knights, tanks, superheavies etc.

 

Can a smash go for troops and other things? Yea of course and will do it much better. But I'd say every player in the world will be happy to see a smash captain hitting his troops rather than his knight.

 

Equating them on points alone is a fallacy considering the CP investment, additional warlord traits required and chap/lib buffs needed to make a true smash captain. Not to mention Shrikes force multiplier abilities for jump and phobos troops.

[Claws and Effect]

Considering that Shrike can get whipped easily by a Smash Captain which are DIRT CHEAP compared to other HQ's, if anything 130 point is too expensive given his relative lack of utility outside of buffing Vanguard Vet suicide squads.

And why would any sensible RG player send Shrike up against a smash captain though? Shrike could single handedly rip apart an opponents backfield if left unnoticed.

He plays the exact same way Corax plays in 30k, targeting troops and backfield units. We don't shoot our commanders out of cannons at the enemy. We leave that for lesser Chapters.

I don't think it's about sending Shrike against a Smash Captain but rather a Smash Captain being able to do the same job for less points (just with a hammer instead of claws obviously) hence why Shrike shouldn't be this expensive.

Shrike is 130 by all reports.

With the increase to the cost of hammers for characters, Shrike is actually significantly cheaper.

A smash Captain for Codex Marines is 143 points. And he doesn't get an 18" range pistol that can target characters and deal mortal wounds.

Said it before, I'll say it again. A Smash Captain is a hammer. Shrike is a scalpel.

Edited by Claws and Effect, 16 September 2019 - 09:57 PM.

[Black Blow Fly]

Son of Corax is a very sharp scalpel not a hammer .

[defl0]

Shrike is disgustingly good. I think most people just haven't realized he can move over 40 inches in a turn and charge something... lol

[rookie40K]

Shrike is disgustingly good. I think most people just haven't realized he can move over 40 inches in a turn and charge something... lol

Plus the shock and awe his haircut will cause upon his arrival.

[defl0]

It's been known to make other chapter masters swoon