Terminators VS Agressors

[Dracos]

< Bias opinion but ...

 

Deep Strike is the only real bonus the terminator has left. If the standards marine Aggressor ever gets deep strike there is no reason to play Terminators imo.

 

It took a minute but I’ve really grown fond of the Aggressor. Even without the conversion I use. I’m a big fan of Inceptors with a little conversion also.

[Ishagu]

Once you actually hold the Aggressors and see them on the table they look pretty cool

[Captain Idaho]

Looks are very subjective so moving back to the tabletop performance topic in hand...

 

The strengths of Terminator squads are putting elite heavy infantry elsewhere on the board without investing in expensive transports and the specialisms of each type of Terminator squad.

 

Of particular note:

 

Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers are the most survivable units we have available. They can be augmented with a couple Lightning Claws models to assist against more numerous opponents. This unit is just so tough in an edition with modifiers and having 2 wounds makes them that extra bit of resilient.

 

Cataphractii Terminators again benefit from a heavy invulnerable save but also are flexible enough to do decent damage with 20 shots per 5 under the Tactical Doctrine, followed up with powerful close combat options.

 

Compared with Aggressors they are just different. Aggressors are powerful for sure and it is hard to NOT take them. However, they won't be much use marching up the table to reach your targets and this has to be kept in mind as they can be shot and dealt with more easily.

 

Having said that, it appears Aggressors will be better for a marching army than Terminators especially because of the points difference.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[domsto]

So only thing going for Terminators are their abillity to deepstrike.

Well thats a shame

I really wish that Terminators have the Statline of the Agressors.

 

Agressors outperform Terminators both in Shooting and Melee....

The only thing against them seems to be the Fact that you need a Repulsor for them.

[Volt]

 

No they didn't got the Rule

And the Combat Doctrins are part of that Rule

 

Ah no, you're right, they don't have Angels of Death, they gave them Shock Assault.

 

And that makes my point for me: they are Codex divergent Chapters. They don't get Combat Doctrines because a doctrine is something you follow (Doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group) and they don't.

 

Except they do. The only Chapters that have rules that don't actually follow things like Tactical/Devastator/Assault company structure is the Black Templars and Space Wolves. It makes no sense for Dark Angels and Blood Angels to not receive the same rules.

[crazyterran]

Or Dark Angels will get something that reflects the Ravenwing/Deathwing hunting the fallen, with greenwing mixed in. 

[Deadman Wade]

So only thing going for Terminators are their abillity to deepstrike.

Well thats a shame

I really wish that Terminators have the Statline of the Agressors.

 

Agressors outperform Terminators both in Shooting and Melee....

The only thing against them seems to be the Fact that you need a Repulsor for them.

Mobility, capturing objectives, better range and access to AV weapon.

Agressors are for standing and shooting, terminators are for taking mid-field objectives and supporting your troops.

Yes, agressors are better, especially if you're facing hordes and melee units in general. Against ranged armies they'll need a Repulsor (more expensive than a Land Raider) and won't be able to use their double shooting for a couple of turns. But terminators aren't entirely useless.

[Kallas]

Except they do. The only Chapters that have rules that don't actually follow things like Tactical/Devastator/Assault company structure is the Black Templars and Space Wolves. It makes no sense for Dark Angels and Blood Angels to not receive the same rules.

 

They do, to a degree.

 

Dark Angels: Generally follow the Codex, but the Ravenwing and Deathwing are a major facet of their deployments and identity, and as such show that they're not fully Codex compliant. Similarly, Dark Angels are notably tenacious to the point is ridiculousness; hell, they used to have the Stubborn rule where they'd literally not fall back because they were so pig-headed; that's not exactly Codex Approved. The Inner Circle is also another major point of divergence, where some Astartes don't get promoted for whatever reasons even if they might be tactically sound.

 

Blood Angels: Again, generally follow the Codex, but the Black Rage/Red Thirst is a huge part of their identity. The Death Company are an iconic Blood Angels unit for a reason. I'll agree that Blood Angels are pretty much Codex compliant, but their lineage, and some of their developed traditions, have taken them a bit further away from the core Codex.

 

Black Templars: I would definitely agree that these fellas aren't Codex, as they're generally pretty proud of it!

 

Honestly, I think it'd make more sense to have fully redone Codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves once the current run of Supplements is done; and I wouldn't be surprised to see Black Templars get a significant rules segment in the Imperial Fists Supplement (personally, I think GW might go with 'no Doctrines, but you get Vows instead').

[MARK0SIAN]

The only real contribution I can make that hasn’t already been said is this: Every time I’ve put Terminators on the table this edition I’ve been disappointed and regretted it. That’s not true for aggressors, or at least not to the same degree. Edited September 6, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Happy-inquisitor]

Well I have just spent all evening painting up some terminators but I will not let this thread get me down too much.

 

Terminators have a built-in delivery system. They can go deep into enemy lines and are a real threat. They can suddenly reposition into my own backfield with the teleport homer if I need that. I can do the mathammer, they are not that incredibly awesome but they can be where I need them to be and until I drop them in they pose a threat across the table that is sufficient for my opponent to have to worry about them.

 

Aggressors are the better unit when they get there but that is the whole issue with them - getting there. Cheap transports cannot carry them and the one which can is painfully expensive. They walk across the table so my opponent knows at all times where the threat is and where it can be next turn, if I take aggressors I leave myself still needing that hidden threat unit in my list.

 

So the role for my terminators is as a backfield threat that nobody can really afford to ignore. I would rather have them in my list than aggressors because on the whole I would rather have a middling unit where I want it than a great unit where I do not want it. That comes down to personal preference, playstyle and a belief that most games are won in the movement phase.

[zero88]

Yes, one unit of TH/SS or Cataphractii with Chainfists is viable, especially with a Librarian joining them to help them make the charge (Veil of time or the White Scars Power). Combined with Fury of the First Strat that can still be really good. But anything other than deep striking one 5 man squad I wouldn't do

[CCE1981]

White Scars Aggressors can outflank for 1 CP. I have run a 5-man unit of Aggressors teleporting in as DeathWatch. Most games ended the turn I dropped them in on a back field objective and wiped the closest unit without double shooting.

[Mandragola]

Assault centurions arguably out-perform either unit. I might need to do the maths but at 52 points for a guy with flamers and hurricane bolters you’re getting the firepower of one of each kind of aggressor. Their attacks hit on a 3+ at S10 -4ap for flat 3 damage.

 

Meanwhile got deep strike there are inceptors and smash captains. A bolter inceptor has far more firepower than a terminator and can fly around. Bit more expensive but not that much. Dropping plasma inceptors and a smash captain together feels like a harsh combination.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Assault centurions arguably out-perform either unit. I might need to do the maths but at 52 points for a guy with flamers and hurricane bolters you’re getting the firepower of one of each kind of aggressor. Their attacks hit on a 3+ at S10 -4ap for flat 3 damage.

 

Meanwhile got deep strike there are inceptors and smash captains. A bolter inceptor has far more firepower than a terminator and can fly around. Bit more expensive but not that much. Dropping plasma inceptors and a smash captain together feels like a harsh combination.

 

A great point and if I wanted a unit to march across the table as an unstoppable threat I think I would stump up for some assault centurions. With just the flamers they are not much more expensive than flamer aggressors but are significantly punchier and harder to kill. Of course the hurricane bolters would be an irresistible temptation for a Fists player.

 

Originally I was going to get bolter inceptors for the role but I won the terminators in my last tournament and I figure they will do a slightly different version of the same job - less shooty but more punchy. Fury of the First does a lot for them, also the combo with Bolter Drill helps with their lack of shooting. Maybe when I finish painting them and play enough games I will conclude that they do not do the job quite well enough, the key to this discussion is that in a Fists list they do a job that aggressors just cannot.

 

As @CCE1981 says, if Aggressors can outflank for 1CP that transforms their role in the game. I would have different views if I were painting my models white.

[Trevak Dal]

How about tantaros terminators? They still get the extra inch of movement? If so might be a good platform for some dual lightning claws.

 

That's the hope anyway (I'm going to have them in my marine army)

[Volt]

How about tantaros terminators? They still get the extra inch of movement? If so might be a good platform for some dual lightning claws.

 

That's the hope anyway (I'm going to have them in my marine army)

I wouldn't recommend it. Tartaros is good because of autocannons and plasma blasters - they melt in the open as they're no more durable than normal terminators and rely on a 2+/5++ with the claws. Better to just go TH/SS if you want some choppy terminators that don't die instantly, or Cataphractii if you want to mix it up.

[Captain Idaho]

So only thing going for Terminators are their abillity to deepstrike.

Well thats a shame

I really wish that Terminators have the Statline of the Agressors.

Agressors outperform Terminators both in Shooting and Melee....

The only thing against them seems to be the Fact that you need a Repulsor for them.

I think there are 2 roles for Terminators I consider competitive enough - teleporting in is only one of them.

 

I think, if you want a heavy close combat unit akin to the old days of previous editions, Terminators are a way forward. Thunder hammer and Storm Shields, 2+ save models are hard to remove and fearsome in close combat now - 1st turn of combat you get 16 Thunder Hammer attacks that will hit on a 3+ for 1 CP!

 

Similarly, a Cataphractii squad can do loads of damage with their chainfists and power fists, retain shooting potential and still have a 4+ invulnerable save.

 

Numbers I'd probably want 7-8 if I'm dropping them in, but if you've got a transport you can get away with less.

 

It's the old deathstar but not as hard to wipe out as it used to be.

 

***

 

I've seen Company Veterans drop pod in as later game objective holders, in competitive play.

 

5 Company Veterans with Storm Shields and Storm Bolters - 90pts

 

Drop Pod - 65pts

 

I've also seen 2 such units in the Drop Pod but let's assume 1 for comparison purposes.

 

If we consider 5 Terminators dropping in it's 165pts base, 185pts for a unit with assault cannon vs the 155pts for the aforementioned combination, Terminators have much more value.

 

They put just as much firepower as the Company Veterans, have twice as many wounds and are much better in close combat as we well as having a 2+ save.

 

Would we pay 10pts extra for those benefits? I think I would. I'd even pay 30pts extra to have the assault cannon as it's even more useful for Ultramarines in the Tactical Doctrine now.

 

Add to that Fury of the First and we have a dangerous situation for backfield pressure.

 

Just a few thoughts.

[Stickeh]

Taking a 10 man terminator squad with two cyclones, then combat squadding the cyclones into the same unit gives an ideal target for ‘Fury of the 1st’ particularly if using Ultramarines tactical doctrine to offset the -1 to hit. Alternatively keep them in one big unit so they all benefit from the stratagem, and this is a great target for transhuman physiology, that also can’t be shut down by melee.

 

Granted this is a huge points investment, just shy of 400, but it’s simply unignorable for an opponent and can be supplemented by ancients, captains, and chaplains as desired.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d rather have Tactical Terminators for the stormbolters and an assault cannon.

[Volt]

I’d rather have Tactical Terminators for the stormbolters and an assault cannon.

I'll take a plasma cannon myself

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would if I could for sure.

[Lemondish]

Once you actually hold the Aggressors and see them on the table they look pretty cool

The only problem I have is their poses. They really need at least one that looks like these...

 

 

You know, instead of the lumbering gait ones.

 

But given the way they're designed, modifying that junk is so hard.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Lemondish

[Volt]

 

Once you actually hold the Aggressors and see them on the table they look pretty cool

The only problem I have is their poses. They really need at least one that looks like these...

 

 

You know, instead of the lumbering gait ones.

 

But given the way they're designed, modifying that junk is so hard.

 

The problem with Aggressors is the damn belts. The models would be fine if they had magazine fed guns and thus could actually be posed, but unless you heavily convert the gak out of your models you're just going to have a mass of monopose infantry kits.

[domsto]

I'll take a plasma cannon myself

Isn't it kinnda Risky, because of the -1 to hit while moving?

I always avoid to put heavy Weapons on my Termis. It seems to me not worth it.

Edited September 8, 2019 by domsto

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Dev protocol.